? remember a posting re brain damage found with MRI

During the last week, approx., I read something about a cpap user having an MRI. This showed some brain damage due to loss of blood supply to one area of his/her brain, presumably caused by untreated OSA, for which he was to have some sort of treatment. I wonder what sort of treatment one could have in these circumstances, and wondered how many of us may have some brain damage. I sure feel as if I have some at times!

Does anyone remember this in a posting, I would like to reread it but I cannot find it again?

[quote="Ms Piggy"]During the last week, approx., I read something about a cpap user having an MRI. This showed some brain damage due to loss of blood supply to one area of his/her brain, presumably caused by untreated OSA, for which he was to have some sort of treatment. I wonder what sort of treatment one could have in these circumstances, and wondered how many of us may have some brain damage. I sure feel as if I have some at times!

Does anyone remember this in a posting, I would like to reread it but I cannot find it again?

Can't direct you to the post-I just want to say to be careful about making that kind of direct connection. There are many interacitng health conditions that could be occuring together in one individual. Don't apply one person's experience to yourself. If you have concerns about possible brain damage talk to a doctor who knows your complete health history. Hopefully you have a doctor you know and trust.

I can't direct you to the post either, but.... here are some links that I haven't posted in quite awhile.

It's not a happy thought, but there is the possibility that years and years of undiagnosed OSA (and the resulting hypoxia) may do damage to the brain that can never be fully reversed. If that is the case, then the best we can hope for is that finally getting on cpap therapy prevents further damage. Better late than never.

All the more reason to be more aware of the possibility of OSA in children and young people.

Here's interesting (and sobering) reading about what fairly short term hypoxia can do: High Altitude Study

Near the bottom of that webpage there are back/forward buttons which "turn the pages" to read the entire article.

A quote from page 439 of the High Altitude study:
Interestingly, a few studies have even reported that some of the changes in performance after exposures to extreme altitudes persist for up to a year or longer after return to lower altitudes, although much debate surrounds this issue (Bahrke and Shukitt-Hale, 1993).

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Equally unsettling is an editorial in Journal of Sleep:

Journal Sleep Editorial - requires Adobe Acrobat Reader to view.

Excerpt from the editorial:
Thirdly, chronic exposure to the features of OSA, such as repetitive intermittent hypoxia, arousals from sleep, or both, could cause neuronal dysfunction. The increased cell apoptosis, which occurs in the hippocampus and cortex of rats chronically exposed to intermittent hypoxia, supports this latter suggestion.[9] Indeed, in these animals, the neuronal dysfunction has been shown to be in the C1A hippocampal region, an area known to be associated with spatial memory and susceptible to hypoxic damage. Interestingly, in this study, the impaired ability to perform spatial memory tasks was only partially reversed after 14 days of normoxia, suggesting residual damage.
In patients with OSA, focal lesions have been detected in the left hippocampus[10] and in more diffuse areas of the brain[11]; as yet, these changes have not been linked to functional consequences. Further research will doubtless explore these tantalizing links between changesin brain morphology and the neurocognitive functional consequences.

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In 2005, Little Antelope posted this link on the TAS message board:

"Cause or Effect? Gray Matter Loss in OSA Patients"

Little Antelope wrote:
The article points out that “Repeated episodes of hypoxia can damage gray matter, and patients with OSA have reduced cerebral blood flow”, citing a study which suggests that “damage to gray matter occurs early in OSA patients”. Although the point is debatable as to whether the brain changes are cause or effect, still it makes sense that if a person is deprived of adequate oxygen during sleep over, say, a period of decades, some irreversible damage will likely result. Who knows? The symptoms may be chronic tiredness, confusion, what I call “Alzheimer mimicry syndrome” – disorientation, short term memory lapses, difficulty learning new things. Is it too much to expect that the best OSA treatment will do more than just slow down the decline?
I know it’s a tough subject. Some people handle it by looking only at the positive side. But our knowledge won’t progress unless we’re willing to look at the whole picture, however painful it may be.

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Medical Journal Cited Above wrote:Indeed, in these animals, the neuronal dysfunction has been shown to be in the C1A hippocampal region, an area known to be associated with spatial memory and susceptible to hypoxic damage.

I can personally vouch for absolutely "fried" spatial memory. Rested Gal has personally witnessed my extreme spatial-memory deficit as well, along the roads in my own home town for the last twenty years. It's not a pretty site. .

A couple of years ago on the TAS board, -SWS mentioned difficulty with "spatial memory":
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... php?t=4306

-SWS wrote:
Without question years of untreated apnea have severely impaired my own spatial memory. I bet there are quite a few others here as well.

An article on canadiangeriatrics.com defines spatial memory as:

Spatial memory is defined as memory for the location of items or places in space. This may include finding a specific article in the newspaper, finding items in the house, or remembering the location of a building in the city. The term spatial memory can refer to small-scale or large-scale environments. Spatial memory in large-scale environments is often referred to as way finding. In small-scale environments, spatial memory is often referred to as memory for spatial location, or simply spatial memory...

Yeah, I wasn't going to tell that I'd seen you in action driving in circles! LOL!! Was a good thing your wife was the navigator or we'd have starved to death driving to a restaurant!

Thank you all for your replies, haven't read the links yet but will do so, the comments are very interesting and it is only to be expected I think.
I go for a catscan and an EEG in a few weeks to check re strokes, not panicking but have my fingers crossed, have had some symptoms to precipitate this action by my Dr. I am not blaming OSA, other factors are doubtlessly involved, but after seeing Dr. I remembered this posting, if indeed that is where I saw it. I will check further back as it could have been more than a week ago. Wish I had high speed! 21 to 24Kbps is slow, or am I impatient

I once went, against my better judgement, from sea level up to about 15 to 16000 ft. within 4 hours, by bus, and can vouch for how awful you feel - 15 or so hours of feeling awful, thought I might die, then was worried in case I didn't! I am not suprised that altitude can cause damage.

RG is on the right track.

I suggest researching the effects of Hypoxia on the human body. Suggest paying particular attention to what hypoxia does to the red blood cells and its ability to carry oxygen towards the brain. You should also learn how the hypoxia condition can lead to thick blood, which in turn puts you at greater risk of blood clotting resulting in greater risk of stroke and/or heart attack.

Keep in mind the OSA patient goes on average 7-years before ever obtaining OSA diagnosis where treatment finally begins. If you sleep 7hrs per night, over 7 years that is roughly 17,885 hours your brain has been subjected to a potentially dangerous condition known as hypoxia.

For example if you become ill and go to an emergency room and they check your O2 levels with a pulse oximeter and find it is <89% they put you on oxygen. But you can go 7 years dropping down to the mid 60's and never know it.

Research shows brain tissue deprived of rich oxygenated blood begins to die in as little as 10-seconds. Keeping the brain supplied with fresh oxygenated blood is critical to its survival. The brain controls everything even how fast your heart beats. Without brain function, your organs would immediately shut down. This is why the human body has 4 redundant paths/arteries going to the brain to keep it supplied with oxygenated blood all joining at the base of the brain in the circle of willis, this is so the brain doesn't get starved of oxygenated blood. Starve the brain of blood and oxygen as RG's links suggest and you pass out.

When brain tissue becomes damaged the damage left behind is known as lacunar infarction or lesion. When the brain tissue dies it turns to a liquid form where it gets flushed out of the brain via ventricles and cerebral spinal fluid. If the damage left behind is infarction you know it is as a stroke. Lesions are more commonly found in MS. But accurately diagnosing MS can be time consuming and difficult and is usually done by ruling all other conditions or factors out.

But in simple form, Hypoxia leads to thick blood (smaller deformed red blood cells, contains more CO2 and has less ability to carry O2). This thick blood leads to greater risk of thrombus forming (blood clots) which further increases risk of stroke.

In stroke treatment it is all about managing risk factors and reducing those factors where ever possible. The damage from one is irreversible.

Here is one link to Cerebral Hypoxia:
http://catalog.nucleusinc.com/displaymo ... php?MID=23

rested gal wrote: Yeah, I wasn't going to tell...

You are a kind and charitable woman, Rested Gal...
...regardless of what those Resmed contest judges say. .

-SWS wrote:

rested gal wrote: Yeah, I wasn't going to tell...

You are a kind and charitable woman, Rested Gal...
...regardless of what those Resmed contest judges say. .

[quote="Ms Piggy"]Thank you all for your replies, haven't read the links yet but will do so, the comments are very interesting and it is only to be expected I think.
I go for a catscan and an EEG in a few weeks to check re strokes, not panicking but have my fingers crossed, have had some symptoms to precipitate this action by my Dr. I am not blaming OSA, other factors are doubtlessly involved, but after seeing Dr. I remembered this posting, if indeed that is where I saw it. I will check further back as it could have been more than a week ago. Wish I had high speed! 21 to 24Kbps is slow, or am I impatient

I once went, against my better judgement, from sea level up to about 15 to 16000 ft. within 4 hours, by bus, and can vouch for how awful you feel - 15 or so hours of feeling awful, thought I might die, then was worried in case I didn't! I am not suprised that altitude can cause damage.