Poll: Should It Be Law That Those With OSA Report It To Gov?

DreamStalker wrote:As an independent 2 and in the interest of being fair ...

Guys.....seriously, my original comments were blown way out of proportion. Make no mistake, I REALLY MEANT what I said, but this is not the forum for political debate.
I should not have made my original comment, not because of what I said but WHERE I said it. And for that I apologize to everyone here, because basically most folks don't want to hear this kind of BS on a great and helpful forum like this.

So please, let's move on......

Let's all keep on keeping on then ...

DreamStalker wrote:In response to the topic, the recent trashing of the 4th amendment (among others) makes the question moot because chances are they already know who has OSA … after all, everything we post here and all the personal information we provide others in order to live our daily lives now goes straight into the big brother database for data mining.

In the interest of national security and the fight against terrorism, I don't really mind the data mining. If it helps locate the bad guys, it's worth it and could save thousands of lives. I may be wrong, but I don't think whether or not I've been diagnosed with OSA is what the United States government is mining their database for.

Now, the question which prompted this thread came from the poll in Sleep Review magazine:
"Should people with sleep apnea be required to report their condition to the department of motor vehicles and/or their car insurance agents?"
The results of the poll were surprising to me, as I would have assumed a lot more than 59% would have indicated they don't want mandatory reporting.

36% voted yes
59% voted no
5% voted undecided

I wonder why so many voted yes. Insurance companies, maybe? Hoping for increased premiums?

Anonymous wrote:

DreamStalker wrote:In response to the topic, the recent trashing of the 4th amendment (among others) makes the question moot because chances are they already know who has OSA … after all, everything we post here and all the personal information we provide others in order to live our daily lives now goes straight into the big brother database for data mining.

In the interest of national security and the fight against terrorism, I don't really mind the data mining. If it helps locate the bad guys, it's worth it and could save thousands of lives. I may be wrong, but I don't think whether or not I've been diagnosed with OSA is what the United States government is mining their database for.

Now, the question which prompted this thread came from the poll in Sleep Review magazine:
"Should people with sleep apnea be required to report their condition to the department of motor vehicles and/or their car insurance agents?"
The results of the poll were surprising to me, as I would have assumed a lot more than 59% would have indicated they don't want mandatory reporting.

36% voted yes
59% voted no
5% voted undecided

I wonder why so many voted yes. Insurance companies, maybe? Hoping for increased premiums?

I sort of agree with you ... they are definitley not looking for OSA patients to haul off to Gitmo just so they can flush their CPAPs down the toilet. My concern is that the they now have the information to do just that should someone get a wild hair to do so.

As for the later question, my guess is that some people just live in fear of the unknown and are willing to give up their privacy for a false sense of security ... however, none of us know when it will be time to go ... just look at what happened to Steve "Crocodile" Irwin a couple of days ago (ever look at the size of his neck, I wonder if he was suffering from OSA?).

- roberto

The problem is that the more of these things that come up, the more our freedoms stand to be restricted, and sometimes the principles of freedom are more important than a statistically-valid-but-comparatively-minor rise in the chance of accident.

First off, we have insurance companies, who seem to have made an art form of figuring out how to take our premiums without ever paying anything out. The point of insurance is supposed to be a formalized version of the old small town feeling. In colonial days, there was no need for insurance. If your house burned down, all of your neighbors would get together and help you build a new one and would donate things to help you re-stock your life. Sure, if there was someone who was exceedingly stupid (for example, burning down their house three or four times in a short period, always through dumb negligence) then over time people are going to be slower to help again.

But if the same person's house is hit by lightning in three different storms and burns down each time, the neighbors are going to say "Man, dude, you really got screwed!" and help each time.

We don't pay premiums to insurance companies so they can make money, we pay them so we can be protected, spreading the risks for any one person across the population.

This is one of the very real risks of genetic testing. If we find serious genetic markers for many of our debilitating diseases and start testing babies at birth, we'll create an entire generation of people who are excluded from the system, whose likely worst health problems are "pre-existing conditioned" out of any insurer's system before they ever show up.

Similarly, if we start limiting access to drivers licenses for anyone with any defined increased risk (however minor, statistically), then pretty soon we'll limit half the population from driving, when most of those people will never actually get into an accident.

Liam, grumpy.

There is a guy on another apnea forum, from California, currently reporting that he has actually had his driver's license taken away only due to a form his doctor sent into the DMV. Now, obviously we don't know all the details and there may be more to the story. But it really brought this argument home for me. It is one thing to argue politics and philosophy about public policy. That is all well and good.

But that post got me thinking how I personally would feel if I actually got a a notice in the mail saying my license were revoked due to apnea. I know I would be facing appeals, possibly legal fees, months of taking cabs or bumming rides, the probability that even if I got reinstated, my insurance rates would go way up and the possibility I might never drive again. I would feel betrayed by my sleep doc and would never feel OK seeing him again.

If that happened to me, an apnea patient who is 100% compliant and doing well, all the political philosophy would go out the window. I would not feel like this was for the greater good. I would feel that this is unfeeling, uncaring bureaucracy gone mad.

Perhaps some people would feel differently. Perhaps some people would feel OK that the state took their license away. I'd really like for someone who depends on driving as a necessity for daily life to post and say they would be OK with having thier own license revoked due to a form thier doctor sent to the government. Because the question I would ask them is: Well, if you're OK with it, if you really feel you are a danger on the road, why didn't you take the responsibility to just stop driving on your own? Do you need the state to save you from yourself? Or is it the old argument, "Well, I'm not a danger, but it's the price I have to pay to help get those other people, the irresponsible ones, off the road?"

Wow, I think we would really be on the slippery slope with that argument.

MandoJohnny wrote:If that happened to me, an apnea patient who is 100% compliant and doing well, all the political philosophy would go out the window. I would not feel like this was for the greater good. I would feel that this is unfeeling, uncaring bureaucracy gone mad.

Exactly, that's the problem in a nut shell. I've never had a serious car accident, never lost control of a car except in black-ice conditions in which lots of other people were sliding all over the road as well (and I have to assume not ALL of them had apnea), and yet these rules generally don't have a whole lot of room for discretion in them.

Seriously, if I knew that by getting this diagnosis I was going to set myself up for potential hassles with the DMV (even if I did ultimately retain my right to drive and didn't see my insurance rates go up), I might very well have decided not to have the sleep study. Which in my case wouldn't have affected things very much, but for a lot of people would mean that instead of KNOWING they have a problem, working to fix it, and working to be careful when driving, you'll just have a lot more people out there willfully ignorant, not correcting the problem, but damn it, they can still drive.

It really works out to be a disincentive to diagnose and treat your problem, in much the same way that requiring doctors to report pregnant mothers who smoke and/or do drugs just serves to drive that population of pregnant woman most in need of prenatal care away from that care.

Unintended consequences...

Liam, twit.

Liam1965 wrote:First off, we have insurance companies, who seem to have made an art form of figuring out how to take our premiums without ever paying anything out. The point of insurance is supposed to be a formalized version of the old small town feeling. In colonial days, there was no need for insurance. If your house burned down, all of your neighbors would get together and help you build a new one and would donate things to help you re-stock your life.

I've often wondered why there are so few co-operative ventures compared with commercial ventures, but have concluded that monetary incentives just work better to motivate problem solutions than non-commercial ventures. CPAP.com serves as a good example of a commercial enterprise which solves a problem with which we all struggle. It would also be good to have an independent co-operative voice for apnea issues, but so far that hasn't happened.

Regards,
Bill

Seems to be a lot of divergent thinking on this issue. No wonder really, when so many do not have all the facts. AND, the real facts are hard to come by, being the mortals we are. Some of us however (me), do have a hot line to the powers that be and have a thorough understanding of just what the hell is happening.

Now I really didn't mean to bring up hell but some will think it has something to do with it. So lets just get to it! Say it like it is! No holds barred! The truth will set you free - well most of you anyway. Please remember that some of you should be locked up, especially the free thinking radicals. What the hell do they know? See, there it is again. Hell does play a part in all this.

For example, how many of you have ever told an insurance agent, telemarketer, evil DME or aspiring politician (unless a good friend or relative) to just "go to hell". Yeah, I know, this list was far too condensed and many others should be included. But what the hell, who cares?

But I am digressing. You need to know the answer to all this. It is very important. Both in your personal life as well as your corporate life. Especially if you drive for a living - taxi, bus, armored vehicle, tank, Porsche. Or even commuting to work or part of the paparazzi crowd.

At this point, have any of you already donned your masks? Kind of anticipating a quick end to this thread with the final divulgence of the real truth? Just a quick little poll to see where you stand. Do you already feel you know the truth and simply seeking confirmation? Or, do you think you know the truth and simply seeking new ideas to convince others who you think may not agree with you because they don't really have all the facts yet? What the hell! Here is the truth!

Only eighty four angels can stand on the head of a pin. Some of you may be aware that there used to be ninety six. Things have changed. Gloria got a bad case of athlete's foot and had to jump off. Olga was asked to leave by the others because of her BO and bad breath, close proximity you understand. But the other ten were forced off by a bureaucratic bean counter following orders. Seems those ten all had sleep apnea and the air blowing out of their exhaust vents ruffled too many feathers on the wings of the other angels.

There was a lot of debate on this issue - a real political hot potato. Went right to the top, and the bottom, so to speak. Both God and satan figured it was not much of an issue and said to hell with it. Unfortunately that seemed to start a whole new debate.

Night, night all.

Bob F

Bob: See your doc. No, not the sleep doc. Not the GP. The other one.

This thread reminds me of something that Ronald Reagan once said. "There oughta be a law against saying 'there oughta be a law.'"

MandoJohnny wrote:There is a guy on another apnea forum, from California, currently reporting that he has actually had his driver's license taken away only due to a form his doctor sent into the DMV. Now, obviously we don't know all the details and there may be more to the story. But it really brought this argument home for me.

MandoJohnny have you heard any more about why this man in California had his license taken away? Was there any more to the story than his doctor reporting his OSA?

Does anyone know if there are other states that do this too?

Look how the results of the poll in Sleep Review Magazine have changed since September 7th.

"Should people with sleep apnea be required to report their condition to the department of motor vehicles and/or their car insurance agents?"

September 7th
36% voted yes
59% voted no
5% voted undecided

September 30th
27% voted yes
70% voted no
3% voted undecided

That's encouraging!