Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

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robysue
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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by robysue » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:40 pm

WickedLoki wrote:The Philips bilevel either old or new does not seem to me a valid comparison. The Resmed bilevel machines have far more adjustability for inhale timing than the Philips machines. If you want to see what you can do with inhale adjustability, get a Resmed bilevel-preferably one that operates in S mode. That would be either the VPAP S or the VPAP Auto.
The OP is looking for a *cheap* way to test the idea that he might do better on a bilevel than he's doing on his Resmed S9 AutoSet. The $45 M-series BiPAP is an exceptionally *cheap* way for him to experiment with determining whether bilevel is something he might want to pursue for comfort reasons since his doc and DME don't seem to want to give him a chance to try a bilevel.

And not everyone does better on Resmed bilevel machines. For me: I liked my PR System One BiPAP Auto very well. And I like the PR Dreamstation Auto just as well. And there's one critical part of the PR BiPAP Auto algorithm that the Resmed VPAP Auto algorithm does not have: The PR BiPAP Autos (even the M-Series) adjust EPAP and IPAP independently of each other---i.e. they have a variable PS. The ordinary Resmed VPAP Autos do not have variable PS, and for me, variable PS is a critical part of why I can comfortably use my machine every night.

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palerider
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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by palerider » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:45 pm

robysue wrote:In a discussion with -SWS and others concerning the differences between EPR, the Remed VPAP algorithm, and the PR BiPAP's timing of the pressure increase when Flex is turned off, -SWS was able to demonstrate that with EPR, the S9 AutoSet does indeed start raising the pressure just before the beginning of the inhalation. There's a very subtle difference between EPR and the bilevel machines. Not enough of a difference for most people to feel, but just enough if you are very sensitive to such things.
having graphed the behavior of EPR, I find that allegation by SWS to be lacking credibility.

it's pretty easy to see how EPR works since resmed provides the mask pressure high data rate trace, and it's easy to see that there's no timing on EPR, it's triggered by the inhalation, pressure doesn't rise until a breath is taken... though there is a 15 or 20 second timeout, supposedly, where if you don't take a breath, it will eventually switch off and go to the set pressure.

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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by robysue » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:06 pm

palerider,

I'm going to chose to NOT fight this battle again with you. All I can say is that for me, EPR didn't hack it---it rushed my inhalations and that made me feel like I was suffocating and those feelings contributed significantly to my horrible crash and burn during the 3 months I used a Resmed S9 AutoSet with EPR. The switch to the PR S1 BiPAP (with BiFlex = Off) immediately eliminated the feeling that the machine was trying to force me to inhale before I was ready to, even when the pressures were still high enough to continue triggering my aerophagia. And eliminating the feeling that the machine was forcing me to inhale before I was done exhaling was a critical step forward in getting this crazy therapy to work for me.

I'm not saying the PR BiPAP's EPAP-IPAP transition works for everybody. But it's equally true that EPR does not work for everybody.

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palerider
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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by palerider » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:23 pm

robysue wrote:palerider,

I'm going to chose to NOT fight this battle again with you. All I can say is that for me, EPR didn't hack it---it rushed my inhalations.
I don't know why you perceive a 'battle', all I'm doing is posting *measured* and *documented* information about how EPR works. Yes, I am pointing out that your description of your perception of it when you tried it six years ago does not match with the measured and documented actions, but that isn't meant to be a 'battle'.

edit: I suppose if you didn't believe rested gal and -SWS back in 2011, there's no chance of you putting any more stock in what I say.

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Last edited by palerider on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by Sheffey » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:53 pm

phopap,

How long have you been trying to sleep with APAP? How many minutes are you able to sleep per night? Do you know that most people have to go through an adjustment period? Are you tense about APAP when you go to bed?

Have you tried to use the machine with EPR turned off? I started out using EPR. But quickly I figured out turning off EPR meant for less stress. EPR made me more aware of my breathing. In order to relax and fall asleep, you need to be less aware of your breathing.
Last edited by Sheffey on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by avi123 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:13 pm

[quote="robysueThe OP is looking for a *cheap* way to test the idea that he might do better on a bilevel than he's doing on his Resmed S9 AutoSet. The $45 M-series BiPAP is an exceptionally *cheap* way for him to experiment with determining whether bilevel is something he might want to pursue for comfort reasons since his doc and DME don't seem to want to give him a chance to try a bilevel.

[/quote]

The Resmed Autoset and the Respironics Bilevel use different methods of changing the blower pressures at the end of inhalation and start of exhalation. $45 would be a reasonable cost to find out assuming that both CPAP machines are in good working conditions.

Check it here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6644310

And here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6345619

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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by phopap » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:29 am

Ok, I bought and cleaned the $45 Resp. 700M bi-level. What settings should I try in the effort to not receive inhale pressure until I initiate inhaling (if that's what I need to avoid the suffocation response). Bi-flex off? Comfort rise set to what? Straight bi-level or auto bi-level? (Remember that I'm diagnosed for 6cm.)

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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by robysue » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:41 am

phopap wrote:Ok, I bought and cleaned the $45 Resp. 700M bi-level. What settings should I try in the effort to not receive inhale pressure until I initiate inhaling (if that's what I need to avoid the suffocation response). Bi-flex off? Comfort rise set to what? Straight bi-level or auto bi-level? (Remember that I'm diagnosed for 6cm.)
As someone when through a lot of what you are dealing with I would suggest the following:

1) BiFlex OFF. BiFlex definitely does a partial increase in pressure during the exhalation stage. So my guess is that you won't want BiFlex.

2) Rise Time = 3. That is the "slowest" setting for Rise Time. In other words, while the pressure change to IPAP is still pretty rapid, it's slower than it would be with Rise Time = 1 or 2.

3) Pressure Settings.. This is a bit harder. I think if I were you, I'd "practice" with the machine for at least 15-20 minutes with each of the following settings to see if one is substantially more comfortable than the others:
  • EPAP = 4, IPAP = 6
  • EPAP = 4, IPAP = 7
  • EPAP = 4, IPAP = 8
Pick the setting that seems most comfortable (or least uncomfortable) for you as long as it is more comfortable (less uncomfortable) than breathing with the S9 feels. You might also want to use the S9 for about 15-20 minutes before you start "practicing" with the M-Series so that you know exactly what the S9 is doing that's bugging you so much. If all the settings are more comfortable than the S9 with EPR=3, then you could just switch to BiPAP Auto with min EPAP = 4, max IPAP = 8, max PS = 4. (There is no min PS setting on the M-Series; min PS = 2 in BiPAP Auto mode.)

4) There may be a "BiFlex/Rise Time test mode" on the M-series. (This is a feature on the System Ones.) If there is, that would let you do a direct comparison of Rise Time = 1, 2, and 3 in real time with the mask on and switching between the Rise Time settings without having to turn the machine off and changing the settings before turning it back on.

5) To get a feel for what BiFlex is going to feel like, you may need to have EPAP set to 4.5 or higher. If you want to see what BiFlex feels like, try setting EPAP = 5, IPAP = 8, and then try all three BiFlex settings. The thing about BiFlex is that the additional exhalation relief over just the drop to EPAP that BiFlex provides is about the same regardless of the BiFlex setting---the differences in the setting are how the machine "rounds" the exhale relief and how the machine "rounds" the pressure increases back to full EPAP and also how the machine "rounds" the pressure all the way back to full IPAP once the inhalation is detected.

6) After settling on the pressure setting that seems most comfortable (or least uncomfortable) to you, try sleeping with the machine for a few days to a week or so. The machine only has a 7-day average AHI on the LCD as I recall, so after 2 or 3 days worth of data, there might not be much daily change in that number. And that daily figure is updated at Noon GMT (Greenwich Meridian Time) regardless of what your local time zone is. Still it's better than nothing for tracking the efficacy of the settings. If you are more comfortable with the M-Series than you are with the S9 after spending a week with the M-series, you can then start working on tweaking the pressure settings to optimize your therapy while also tackling the issue of how to convince your doc to prescribe a bilevel machine so that it is easier to upgrade to a BiPAP that is compatible with SleepyHead and that does not require a special card/card reader.

Final note: Since the M-Series has a broken humidifier, you have to be very careful about evaluating whether discomfort continues to be mainly an "I can't exhale properly" problem or starts to become "I'm so dried out that I can't get comfortable." Be kind to your nose while using the M-Series: Use the humidifier in "passover" mode----i.e. put water in the humidifier tank even though the humdifier doesn't work. And lots of daytime use of a saline nasal spray may help keep the nose from getting too dried out.

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Additional Comments: PR System DreamStation and Humidifier. Max IPAP = 9, Min EPAP=4, Rise time setting = 3, minPS = 3, maxPS=5

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Re: Quick - How low can you go on BiPAP exhalation pressure?

Post by phopap » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:31 am

Trials: I've been able to fall asleep at 4/6 once for a couple hours one night, and at 4/7 for a total of 5 1/2 hours last night. (Biflex off, rise time 3) But it's been touch and go, because with this Resp. M Series it only gives me 2 or 2.5 secs for my inhale before it switches to exhale, long before I'm ready! My previous problem (with the S9 Auto) is gone (where it wouldn't let me finish exhaling). I wonder why it's not sensing that I'm still breathing in.

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Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: S9 AutoSet, Pilario Q, Phillips DreamWear large and medium frame, Wisp, ResMed Quatro fx large and medium, AirFit P10, ResMed (Activa?)
diagnosed: 6cm
PR BiPAP Auto M-series (700M) w/broken heater
ResMed S9 AutoSet
Masks:
ResMed quatro fx large & medium
RM “active cell” “shallow” (Activa?)
RM air fit P10
F&P Pilario Q
Phillips DreamWear large frame and medium frame
Phillips Wisp