OT: Time out and/or Duke it out thread

[Pugsy]

what'd you do to make AmyR hate you so??? :raises eyebrow:

I was wondering the same thing. She's a newbie and I don't remember showing my ugly side to her.

well, I believe it only takes one. that right cross to the jaw usually does a pretty good job.... verbal or physical. continuing it does take two though.

I stand corrected...I should have said it takes two to continue fighting..it's not much fun being an ass all by yourself.

[Guest]

It started here yet blew up there...

Here is an example of misinformation that regardless of what words you choose or how you string em together will snowball and blowup a thread if you said anything. He is the same one who would be shouting vulgar names if anyone else posted anything contrary to his comment that was not correct.

I challenge anyone here to try out their tactics on this rascal.

So how did that go for ya?

I still don't understand how anyone who can read and read the subsequent info on the filter link could say think this is/was someone trying to poke a fight with the natives?

It's quite clear that all you have to do is choose a silly moniker to answer to and you can then say anything you want - right or wrong - and even scream vulgarities.

For the visitors or newbies confused by the behavior here read this... I can't post a link but if you search for this thread it may shed some light, then maybe not.
Include the quotes "The Inner Circle:perception,conspiracy,reality??"

If you put this in Google it should take you to the correct thread by Carbonman - w/o the parentheses ("The Inner Circle:perception,conspiracy,reality??" cpaptalk)

[palerider]

what'd you do to make AmyR hate you so??? :raises eyebrow:

I was wondering the same thing. She's a newbie and I don't remember showing my ugly side to her.

well, I believe it only takes one. that right cross to the jaw usually does a pretty good job.... verbal or physical. continuing it does take two though.

I stand corrected...I should have said it takes two to continue fighting..it's not much fun being an ass all by yourself.

there's at least a couple in the thread that seem to enjoy just being an ass, no matter what, sadly.

[Stormynights]

When you get on the same level as an ass what does tha make you? Just rise above and let them look reiculous all by themself.

[jnk...]

Guest made me laugh. I had forgotten carbonman's hilarious thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48131&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... le#p437733

Once one is part of the cpaptalk illuminati, a verbal right cross here never actually lands unless the intended recipient chooses to allow it to do so. Or so I hear, anyway. Neo taught me that's how the forum software works for the inner circle.

Although I wouldn't wish moderator goddesship unto her in the sense of making her responsible for anything here, personally if I were Johnny (and I don't think I am), I would have no trouble at all with renaming Pugsy's spam button to something that would allow her super-powers to zap away any posts that were distracting in a thread in which she was actively Pugsying once she had warned an incendiary poster or two to move a slap fight elsewhere away from the newbie in need. Just sayin'.

[Chevie]

When you get on the same level as an ass what does tha make you?

A proctologist?

[esel]

The power of DoriC.

Maybe a stupid idea and comments are welcome.

I just found a few posts of DoriC, as her name has come up repeatedly with missing her.

What is it that she has so much power here. Well one point I found is that she knows how to talk to people.

Here one example.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BABETTE! Just a reminder that there are "seniors" on this forum, you naughty girl!(LOL).

Babette had written a big “thank you boys” for their happy birthday thoughts and commented on her nice day with a final touch of “(And yes, he slipped me the salami later, sheesh, how can you doubt that? LOL”

Well, isn’t this a nice way to remind some one ?

When some ugly came up, Aug 2014, DoriC was not around. People tried and tried to stop the ugly.
Even started a new thread called “Please just stop posting!”

It is sooo amazing to see what happens when she reappeared.

viewtopic.php?p=927141#p927141

This is her family, her “gang”, she trust them.

…and all will be well now. Where’s the Sheriff when we need him?!

“… Now all of you be good and sleep well!

AND just have a look before and after DoriC’s post.

Here my 1 cent thoughts last night as I couldn’t sleep, darn CRAP kept blowing up my belly and I am learning how to SnorBurp into my FFM.

What about re-posting an ugly thread where all names are replaced with Guess, Noise, Otherguest, Moreguest, Selfguest, pleasefindbetternames, as well as great avatars to put in some color. Calling names need Find Replace as well. and have how DoriC responded to it.

[SleepyEyes21]

Hi Robysue- here are my answers to the second half of your reply from last week; I apologize for not getting it to you on Friday:

(Pugsy wrote) He's entitled to have his opinion and present it.

(Robysue said) Right, wrong or indifferent ...he has the same rights as everyone here.

I agree, however, opinions are not right or wrong- they are subjective and simply opinions, not facts.

You (and others) keep saying that, yet when you criticize and/ or verbally attack another member in a personal manner, no one is upholding this 'right' we all have.

(Robysue said) Are you trying to imply that Pugsy goes around verbally attacking other members in a personal manner with enough frequency to be a problem? If so, then I beg to differ.

No - I am not trying to imply that Pugsy goes around 'frequently attacking members in a personal manner,' but thank you for asking before you make that assumption (Btw- this is the same type of 'assumed implication' that Pugsy tried to assign to me in an earlier post of hers, stating that 'wasn't I a bully by calling PR a bully?' Uh- no. This statement makes no logical sense, since 'bully is not a "bad" word. Because if Pugsy thinks it's a bad word, then she'd have to call you out on it too, to be fair Robysue, since you used the term also. And I know that's just beyond ridiculous.)

Yet, I was referring to Pugsy and others in my reply because she has already admitted to criticizing and/or verbally attacking other members (she calls it "being a d*ck.)

(Robysue said) Or is this "You" the proverbial, nonspecific "you" meaning "any forum member who engages in this bad behavior"? In this case, the problem is that personal counterattacks are ineffective at bringing a genuine bully under control. The more you respond to a genuine bully with personal attacks like

• "You are an asshole"
  "You are an idiot"
  "You know NOTHING"
  "You are a horrible person"
  "You are *$(@% <fill in your favorite explicative expression>"

the more the genuine bully will respond and escalate the flame war.

I can agree that if someone responds to a bully with these particular types of words/ word phrases, they are less likely to be effective in many cases.

[Stormynights]

Sleepyeyes I think it would just be better for you to just come on out with why you don't like Pugsy instead of just nit picking every thing she says. There has to be a reason behind all of this and just clearing the air would be good for everyone.

[Pugsy]

I don't remember calling anyone a dick...now I often have mentioned it in generic terms....asshole/jerk/bully/dick, etc.
But I don't remember ever calling any one specific person a dick a dick in a thread with a direct personal attack.
Now I do admit to recently pointedly calling a person an asshole to their "face" or making a point of saying it directly to him.
Dick is not a term that I tend to use to express displeasure directly...now asshole...yeah, I admit to that but that's a rare occurrence usually when I have been personally attacked first (I know that's no excuse for being ugly but I am human after all).
And my recent "you are an asshole" remark was made in a thread that by the time I got involved was totally derailed but I still made my apologies to the OP for further derailment.

It was that thread that got me to thinking about doing this OT Time out/duke it out thread because calling someone an asshole left a bad taste in my mouth and I figured that I wanted someway to express my displeasure without making an ass out of myself in the process.

Any of you guys/gals have trouble coming up with your own definition of "bully" or whatever...hey...you are all supposed to be adults and be able to figure out how to come up with your own definitions and decide how you want to respond. To me ugly is ugly no matter what name you want to put on it and I never for once expected anyone to adopt my own personal definition of anything and that's why I am not going to argue the point. I don't feel it is necessary.

And yes...I am far from perfect and no, I am not Dori.
But I promise you all this....there will be no more direct personal attacks in helping threads from me.
Now in this thread or any other OT Time out /duke it out threads...I won't be making any such promises. You want to pick a fight with me here or some other "neutral" territory...I may or may not bite...sort of depends on my mood for the day.

You guys/gals...come up with a definition that you can live with and a reaction that you can live with. Whatever floats your boat.

My own personal thoughts though...when I see someone being ugly...I don't need the "posse" to tell me that so and so was being ugly (but that seems to be what the posse likes to do)...like it's going to change anything and we all know it won't. I think that most of us will recognize ugliness when we see it and don't need it to be pointed out especially by various members of the posse in the "let's pile on" mentality.

We aren't going to stop the ugliness...it's gonna happen but we can stop the helping threads from being derailed further by not adding on more ugliness....no matter how much you think so and so deserves it. It's not easy..believe me I know how hard it is to bite your fingers to keep from joining the piling on or the posse. I am not perfect...I have been a part of it in the past but I am going to try really, really hard to not say something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth in the future.

You all are free to say and do whatever you want...I just hope that you choose to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

[SleepyEyes21]

"Guest" posts have absolutely NO credibility here!

And everyone is GOING to ignore them ! and any information in them as not valid !

You ARE kidding, right?!?

I'm not going to participate or agree with/ in any of your delusions, now or ever. You have no credibility with me. j/s

[SleepyEyes21]

Would you buy any cpap equipment from this personality?

"Guest" posts have absolutely NO credibility here!

And everyone is GOING to ignore them ! and any information in them as not valid !

A mature business man he is NOT.

Agreed.

[SleepyEyes21]

Sleepyeyes I think it would just be better for you to just come on out with why you don't like Pugsy instead of just nit picking every thing she says. There has to be a reason behind all of this and just clearing the air would be good for everyone.

Hi Stormy,

I believe you have a misunderstanding somewhere about Pugsy and I.

Question: If we did have a problem, are you talking about 'clearing the air for everyone' meaning just Pugsy and I, or everyone else in the forum?

Thanks

[49er]

I am concerned that this thread is unintentionally becoming an issue of too many rules. Kteague’s suggestion is good for newbies but what about other threads that get derailed? No one, whether they are a newbie or veteran should have their thread derailed in which they asked for help.

If I suggest someone take their spat to this thread and they turn on me, I would simply say again, the issue is a helping thread is being derailed and the discussion really belongs in this thread. If I continued to be ignored or the subject of hostilities, I would cease my comments and let someone else take a shot at it.

My two cents.

49er

[SleepyEyes21]

Ok Robysue- here are my remarks to your questions and comments:

I agree it takes 'two (or more) people to start a flame war;' however, the individuals aren't always just the one bully and the one victim. I can agree that 'sometimes the best way to handle cyberbullying is to just ignore it.' However, that is not the only effective way to handle all cyberbullying and it is not the only way that works for different types of cyberbullies.

(Robysue said) Three comments:

1) As jnk pointed out, "Don't Feed the Trolls" is a commonly accepted, but widely ignored, rule on a lot of internet forums. In forums with significant moderation of posts "Don't Feed the Trolls" is as heavily enforced as "Don't Be a Troll" because it turns out that people will disagree on where the line is between being a troll and not being a troll.

I can agree that this probably does happen in forums that are significantly moderated. But this forum we are in now is not moderated (technically speaking.)

(Robysue said) 2) Since you think that ignoring the bullying is "not the only effective way to handle all cyberbulllying", kindly tell us what you do think a good way of handling the bullying is, but do keep in mind Johnny's Rules.

Please do not interpret my giving you general information a way of suggesting what you or anyone else should do to handle the bullying that goes on in here. I am simply giving you (and other members) factual information, any of which can be researched further by anyone interested. What you do with it is up to you. Here are some links and info I found:

Definition of Bullying
1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bully- to treat abusively; to affect by means of force or coercion; to use browbeating language or behavior;

2. http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/ ... lying.page - "A person is bullied when he or she is exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other persons, and he or she has difficulty defending himself or herself... This definition includes... important components: 1. Bullying is aggressive behavior that involves unwanted, negative actions; 2. Bullying involves a pattern of behavior repeated over time.
Today, more than thirty states have adopted laws against bullying... Types of Bullying: Bullying can take on many forms.
1. Verbal bullying including derogatory comments and bad names
2. Bullying through social exclusion or isolation
4. Bullying through lies and false rumors
9. Cyber bullying (via cell phone or Internet) Learn more about cyber bullying"

3. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cyberbullying - "the act of harassing someone online by sending or posting mean messages, usually anonymously; to bully online by sending or posting mean, hurtful, or intimidating messages…"

(Robysue said) In other words, for this forum, "More Moderation" is just not going to happen.

Oh yes- it will. I promise. If you recall, Pugsy wrote in her first post in this thread that 'Carolyn was allowing us to self-moderate...' (or something to that effect; apologies if I didn't get the wording exactly right Pugsy.) See Robysue (and everyone else who hasn't already recognized this)- here's the reality of this whole thing, which I suspect Johnny knows already. This forum and the members in it, have been self-moderating since the forum began. No one needed Johnny and Carolyn to tell them they could or could not self-moderate; people acted and reacted to each other as they saw fit. And as I stated in my last post, as the Group began to establish norms- the Group decided on those unspoken and unwritten norms based off of the majority displaying the same preferred self-moderation techniques. So- although some members want to say that Johnny is the only one who can moderate someone's behavior in the forum because of his posted rules, that is not completely true. For example, take a look here at what I am doing in my posts in this OT thread. Some would say it is "Social Suicide." 'I have knowingly gone against the rules of the group and I stand up to Bullies, AND I am perceived to have actually FED THE TROLLS at times' And what is happening around me? A LOT of people are NOT HAPPY And the underlying threat seems to be: 'if you don't shape up and do things our way, we will consider you to be a Bully too and will ostracize you, just like a troll.' Now- Robysue, please explain again how "more Moderation is NOT going to happen," when it is quite normal for this to be happening in an online group?

(Robysue said) 3) In my humble opinion, when a person chooses to regularly counter attack the bullies with bullying language of his/her own, that person becomes part of the problem, not the solution. You are entitled to disagree with my opinion. You are entitled to persuade me with a logical argument about why my opinion is wrong in your opinion, and I'll listen to what you have to say. On this forum you are also entitled to call me any name you like and disagree with my opinion in a childish, silly fashion by personally attacking me rather than making an argument for why you disagree with my opinion. I'll then do my best to ignore your personal attacks. Can I promise with 100% certainty that I'll ignore them? Alas, no: I'm just a fallible human being and I do occasionally get snookered into useless flame wars. And I often regret it after the fact.

Okay.

I strongly suspect that there are quite a few members who are irritated with me because I don't follow the forum 'norm' of "ignore the bullies."

(Robysue said) I think you are correct. There are a few members who are irritated with you when you start feeding the trolls. I'll go further: I think there are a number of members who believe that you are one of the bullies because you sometimes counterattack with language that can be interpreted as bullying language of your own.

I can understand their perspective, of course, if they hold the belief that 'one shouldn't feed the trolls.' And I can understand how others may also think I am one of the bullies if my response is misinterpreted and/ or misread. However, everyone always has the choice to stop reading any thread and to go on to another.

I've been a member for a little over two years, and although there are no written rules by Members (other than Johnny's rules, of course), there are 'unspoken, inherent' group norms that most active members are strongly encouraged to follow. Group norming is a common behavior for all types of groups of people; Google it. Contrary to popular belief, I do not respond to the bullies 'just to cause trouble' or 'to point them out to others' (which seems to be a favorite theme.) If you can't read my mind, then you don't understand my thoughts; therefore you don't know my reasons for responding to the bullies. You can assume, but you know what they say...

Yes, there are group norms that are not written.

I'll even choose not to argue with your statement, "Contrary to popular belief, I do not respond to the bullies 'just to cause trouble' or 'to point them out to others' (which seems to be a favorite theme.) If you can't read my mind, then you don't understand my thoughts; therefore you don't know my reasons for responding to the bullies."

(Robysue said) But here's the thing that you don't seem to understand: There IS an unwritten, but unenforceable, "group norm" that one should in general "Not Feed the Trolls" or at the very least, "Think Carefully about Feeding the Trolls" and IF you choose to feed the trolls, the group norm around here is that the way you respond should make sense: In other words, IF you choose to feed the trolls, your response should be well written enough to make it clear why you are feeding the troll by launching a personal attack.

Okay- I have to say I do not understand this unwritten 'group norm:' ...IF you choose to feed the trolls, the group norm around here is that the way you respond should make sense: In other words, IF you choose to feed the trolls, your response should be well written enough to make it clear why you are feeding the troll by launching a personal attack.

Here are my questions:
1. Why?
2. Who made this rule, in what year was the rule made, how many members were in the Group then, and how many voted For and Against this Rule?
3. Which one (or more) of Johnny's rules does this one come close to following?

And around here there's another unwritten "group norm" that is: "Bullies should be treated like trolls: Ignore the bullying as much as possible". This group norm is widely ignored, particularly by some posters, including some long term posters, often because "bullying" is in the eyes of the beholder. But the group norm is still there in principle.

(Robysue said) And you are right: We can't read your mind. Hence you have an obligation to write in a fashion that is clear enough where forum members don't need to read your mind to understand why you are choosing to respond to bullies in a fashion that seems to be crossing into bullying behavior yourself. If you don't want people misinterpreting what you write, then make sure that what you write clearly conveys your thoughts so that others cannot misinterpret what you are saying and doing.

Questions/ Comments:
1. The Pope himself cannot speak the languages of all men (and women.) Do you honestly think ANY of us here can write well enough so that almost 80,000 people will not misinterpret nor misunderstand our intended communication?
2. The ONLY thing Trump said that made sense in his whole campaign was (essentially) that 'you don't give up all the details about how to fight the enemy.' I know many think I am just 'bullying the bullies back' when I respond. Let me reassure you- in many of my posts to the Bullies, I was defending other Members who were being bullied (the same as Pugsy stated she does and will continue to do, so is it a "bad" thing to help defend someone else?) And in other posts- I can promise you, that each and every one of them succeeded in accomplishing what they were intended for- BECAUSE of the Bully(ies') behavior, not mine. Perspective is everything

I'm not going to apologize for not meeting this particular forum norm.

(Robysue said)You have the right to not apologize. And I have the right to express my opinion that you or anybody else should apologize when I see something that bothers me. You (or anybody else) can choose to ignore my opinion and not apologize, but you (and everybody else) have no right to tell me that I am not entitled to my opinion.

Agreed.

(Robysue said) I will add this: There ARE times when responding to the bullies is necessary. But NAME CALLING right back does NOT work.

I will agree for most Bullies. However, there are different types of Bullies and what doesn't work for one, just may work for another sometimes.

I am an assertive person, so will usually try to clear up misunderstandings by posting.

(Robysue said) Pugsy is also an assertive person who does her best to clear up misunderstandings. So am I. So are the vast majority of long time (5+ year) posters.

I can't say that I agree with you about Pugsy 'doing her best to clear up misunderstandings.' We had some misunderstandings when this thread started, and I've asked her if we could talk it out. She has stated she does not want to do that. I can see that you are an assertive person also. I cannot agree or disagree about the 'vast majority of long time posters being assertive, as I don't know who they are.

I am different from a lot of you all, I am sure.. but that's okay.

(Robysue said) You are not as different as you think you are.

Thank you (I think), however- this is only YOUR opinion

(Robysue said) Except for ONE thing: You do seem to be much more inclined to take the bait when someone starts the senseless name calling and you sometimes respond in ways that are NOT useful to the helping thread.

I can understand how and why that is your perception (about 'taking the bait'), now that I've confirmed the unwritten group rules. And yes- I have responded at times in the past in ways that were not useful to the helping thread. You are correct. In the future, before I enter into 'unhelping' answers, I will suggest this OT thread to the other party(ies) involved.