New model - ResMed AirStart 10 CPAP has compliance data only

We will want to keep an eye out for people that DMEs may want to give the new ResMed AirStart 10 model to. It is a smaller, single pressure machine with compliance data only. It's cheaper, at $500, so they are likely to be the first choice for many DMEs to give to new CPAP users.

I don't know if this is replacing the AirSense CPAP or not. But, as always, we need to encourage people to get autoset, full data models of CPAP machines that are supported by SleepyHead.

Saw that yesterday.
Looks like it's in addition to the AirSense 10.
So, now ResMed has TWO "bricks" in their product line.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... atures-tab


Den

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I saw this in the "new product news"....I'll bet the DMEs are thrilled to have a new low priced basic machine to pawn off to unsuspecting people.

This reminded me of the Pink Floyd song "Another Brick in the Wall"

"We don't need no education,
We don't need no thought control,
No dark sarcasm in the classroom,
Teachers leave them kids alone.
Hey, teachers, leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

No education......no knowledge. Rip off the customers (the actual users) and keep them in the dark.

Hey......ResMed......If you're reading......you're greedy, pathetic and disgusting for producing products like these.


Den

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Wulfman... wrote: Hey......ResMed......If you're reading......you're greedy, pathetic and disgusting for producing products like these.


Den

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Its part of our healthcare model though, $$$$, too many middle men . I don't see any values, dignity, unity or compassion ever coming from the Resmed corporation.

Like I have said, get the machines on the shelves at Walmart. Crap (bricks) , good , better, best or amazing. Let the vendors compete in a free market and let the consumer make a choice. Just like other people with other medical conditions can.

The best we can do is make people aware of bricks, so well done to the OP for bringing this issue up regarding the AirStart 10.

I'm having difficulty understanding what's so bad that ResMed introduced this model, probably because I'm not in the US and don't quite understand your healthcare/insurance system.
I would have thought that this would be a nice cheap backup/travel CPAP in cases I don't mind not having data. Or maybe there are better but still cheap machines that aren't bricks?
Thanks!

I'm stumped as to why manufacturers make these bricks! Once they have an autoset programmed and debugged and through QA and tested, it's just a matter of churning out copies and slapping the software in them. But in order to add a new (brain dead) machine, they have to write a bunch of new software, and debug it and QA it, etc., all things that cost money to do. Why do they spend money to make an inferior product when they can make a copy of the superior product for free?

If I were a device manufacturer who already had paid all of the engineering costs for an apap, I'd tell the DMEs that if they want a brick, it'll cost $100,000 each, wholesale, and they need to give 6 months lead time on the order.

DBestman wrote:I'm having difficulty understanding what's so bad that ResMed introduced this model, probably because I'm not in the US and don't quite understand your healthcare/insurance system.
I would have thought that this would be a nice cheap backup/travel CPAP in cases I don't mind not having data. Or maybe there are better but still cheap machines that aren't bricks?
Thanks!

The problem is that while it may be a nice cheap backup/travel CPAP device, it is not an effective device for everyday use. There is nothing there for a patient or a medical professional to evaluate the efficacy of the treatment. All they can see is that the patient is (hopefully) using the device at least 4 hours a night for 70% of the time. They cannot tell if they patient has leaks, or if the pressure is to low for example.

From a business standpoint though, it's a cash cow. Since here in the U.S. the CPAP brick and the Autosets are both reimbursed the same amount by Medicare (and insurance companies follow suit), it makes a ton of sense to sell you a CPAP device with a net cost of say $200 with $300 additional profit instead of an Autoset with a net cost of $400 with an additional $100 of profit. Of course these numbers are merely used to illustrate the point, I have no idea what they actually cost/reimburse.

Looking at it from a business sense, it requires the business to maximize their profits, even to the detriment of the patient. They're going to push every way they can to sell the cheapest solution possible. They make money, the insurance company controls their costs, and the only loser is the pesky patient (but that's okay because they're not really giving or receiving the money).

-Bill

wm_hess wrote: ... (but that's okay because they're not really giving or receiving the money).

-Bill

Bill, you really hit it out of the park with this sentence. Of the problems with healthcare here in the US, this mindset stops real reform and innovation. We have been trained to look at the cost as what we pay out of pocket, if it doesn't come from me who cares? If people here in the US would view the insurance payments has their money also, things would change. We would not tolerate this crazy system if people thought of insurance reimbursement as "their" money. It is, you pay premiums and they are used to pay medical bills. I know that there are other problems with the US healthcare system, but this is one of the foundational problems. So, if more people thought of it as "their" money, we would demand auto PAP machines with full data. For years I used bricks, never knew the difference and only looked at what I paid out of my own pocket. Now, for my next machine I will fight to have a full data auto PAP machine. I bought my present one with cash (ResMed AirSense 10 Auto and a PR Dreamstation Auto) and I love the info the machines provide (Sleepyhead is next, I need to find an iOS version) and to see what my setting average. My wife also has Sleep Apena but her sleep study showed very mild, she did not qualify for a CPAP then, but now I think she may. When (if) the time comes she will not get a brick.

Bill: I just learned about the Autostart, and I saw the retail of $350 and thought it would be a great travel or backup machine. My settings haven't changed in years, and I am fortunate to have purchased an autoset out-of-pocket (I used insurance 10 yrs ago and it ended up costing more than retail for a machine I didn't want). I've been on CPAP for 25 yrs, so I know that my settings are stable, so I am always looking for a cheaper travel machine (I'm fine with regular cpap for travel, as I don't vary greatly during the night).

I often forget about new users, and the need for reliable and extensive data. I agree with your sentiments, and would caution newbies to gather lots of data, at least initially. Thanks for your comments (I usually lurk, but you got me thinking).

Sad, sad, sad. Here's the antidote:

Given below, this is a reasonably up-to-date database that tells you if a machine has data capability (tho the newest ResMed machine may not be on it yet). Yes, even a few of the newest models are NOT data capable, sad to say. Some other features are covered also. This links to one database but there are different two views into it – use whichever you find handiest:

https://sleep.tnet.com/equipment/cpapmachines

https://sleep.tnet.com/cmd

They have BOTH a straight CPAP and a APAP. It does have a SDCARD to record data and a humidifier built in. What they removed was AUTOSTART, AUTORAMP, heated hoses (need a hose wrap to prevent rainout), No wireless reporting (MyAir). I wouldn't buy the CPAP, buy the APAP. Retail for Airstart 10 APAP is running $385 11/2016. This is a very viable machine for budget or high copays from insurers.

unclerobmac wrote:They have BOTH a straight CPAP and a APAP. It does have a SDCARD to record data

Yes..it has a SD card but the ONLY data it gathers is hours of use.
If someone doesn't need or want anything but how many hours they used it....hey, it's a good machine for the money.

Everyone needs to understand completely and fully what the machine gathers in terms of data or doesn't.
Not to mention the heated hose thing...hose covers don't always work so great and they add weight to the hose which pulls on the mask...which also isn't so great.
But if they don't need a heated hose...again...it's a good value.
For me...the heated hose feature would be a deal breaker for me even if the lack of efficacy data wasn't. I have been down the hose cover road and I much prefer heated hose.

People should be educated on exactly what this new model line does and doesn't do...and then make the appropriate choice as to whether it suits their needs or not.

Just in case there is any ambiguity as to the data that goes on that SD card.
This link is for the apap capable model...but the regular cpap is the same.
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... idair.html
Look at the specs

Compliance Data to SD Card

Compliance data means hours of use...nothing more and nothing less...no leak, no AHI, no nothing but how many hours the machine was used.
If it was anything else the wording would mention "efficacy" data...and that term is noticeably absent on all AirStart 10 machines.

If the AirStart machine has all the features a person wants or needs...and the person fully understands the limitations...hey...it's good machine for the money.

Me...I wouldn't want one for my primary machine...now maybe as a spare but even then I value efficacy data too much. I would rather spend a little more money on a machine that might help me sort out problems (leak, AHI, etc) than I would want to spend the money on another sleep study to see what might be going on.
I actually think leak data is something that is extremely critical...if leaks aren't well managed then everything else is suspect...and a new sleep study is useless for figuring out if the problem is leaks or not...but it makes doctors and sleep labs a lot of money and you get to pay for it either out of your pocket or with an increase in premiums that go along with what happens when insurance companies pay out in benefits.
There might come a time where my primary machine up and dies and the spare becomes the primary.

Insurance companies pay by HCPCS billing code...not by the retail cost or brand or model...they don't care. They are going to pay the same dollar amount whether it's a brick cheap machine or a full data top of the line machine.
Now the DME cares because they get to pocket more money when the insurance companies pay the same for no matter what machine they supply. Copays are going to be the same no matter which machine you get...they aren't going to reduce the copay one red cent. Copays are based on allowed amount and if the allowed amount is the same for the HCPCS billing code...the patient doesn't get a break at all when these cheap machines are supplied.
The only people who benefit when insurance and DMEs are involved with these cheap machines...the DME..his profit margin just took a huge leap.

Now if insurance isn't involved and money is tight and the person is well educated on the features or lack of...yeah, these cheaper machines have a place but only if the person is okay with it and knows exactly what they are getting.

Pugsy wrote:

unclerobmac wrote:They have BOTH a straight CPAP and a APAP. It does have a SDCARD to record data

Yes..it has a SD card but the ONLY data it gathers is hours of use.
If someone doesn't need or want anything but how many hours they used it....hey, it's a good machine for the money.

People should be educated on exactly what this new model line does and doesn't do...and then make the appropriate choice as to whether it suits their needs or not.

Compliance data means hours of use...nothing more and nothing less...no leak, no AHI, no nothing but how many hours the machine was used.
If it was anything else the wording would mention "efficacy" data...and that term is noticeably absent on all AirStart 10 machines.

If the AirStart machine has all the features a person wants or needs...and the person fully understands the limitations...hey...it's good machine for the money.

Now if insurance isn't involved and money is tight and the person is well educated on the features or lack of...yeah, these cheaper machines have a place but only if the person is okay with it and knows exactly what they are getting.

I am in total agreement with these comments (and all I left out for brevity); I also think the best to hope for is that doctors and patients alike recognize the value of data and its analysis offers in arriving at optimal treatment of the condition. I think diabetic treatment is way ahead in this regard and adapting that model is what would serve the community best. Regarding compliance data: which of us would evaluate a used car based on the odometer reading alone?

As a software engineer, I'm still back at the insanity of ResMed RAISING their cost to produce the machine so that they can LOWER the price. Look, they have to engineer the machine so that it dumps full data on to the flash card while it is under development. That's the debugging info and is the only way that they know what the bugs are, and the only way that they know when they've fixed the bugs. And it's the only way that the QA team has to verify that the machine does what it is supposed to do. Once the machine writes out data, it costs ResMed money to remove the data-dumping code, and costs not insignificant money to run a full QA cycle, especially when they don't have the data to do the QA!

It's like a car maker taking a hammer to a brand-new car so that they can sell it at a discount at their "chips and dents" sale.