Full face mask that wont push my jaw back?

Hi all,

I was wondering if there are any full face masks you might know that wont push on the lower jaw much? The reason I ask because I have realized that my AHI is always 2-3 times higher than when I use my nasal mask (My conjecture is that FFM's push my jaw back, narrowing my airway). However, even with the higher AHI from FFM's I always wake up feeling more refreshed than I do with nasal masks, possibly because of no mouthleaks, and would like to stick to using full face masks. I currently have the F&P Simplus, Mirage Quattro, and the F10. Thanks!

I think that is a legitimate concern, tl. But, I don't know of any FFM that doesn't bear somewhat on the lower jaw, which could tend to exacerbate conditions leading to apnea. However, I think you to need to examine the increased AHI a little more. What is the makeup? CA or OA? And how much is the increase, really? If your AHI is 0.2 with a nasal mask and 0.6 with a FFM, then a 2 or 3 times increase is not significant, at least IMO. If the increase is in CA, it could be mask leaks or other FFM disturbance that is causing the increase and not a more restricted airway. If the increase is OA, perhaps you need just a little more pressure with a FFM. If OA and Flow Limitations are increased with a FFM, a soft cervical collar could be beneficial in keeping the airway in a more desirable position.

But I think the bottom line is if the FFM provides more refreshing sleep, then it's the obvious choice.

Thanks for the reply Jay,

When I use my FFM, my AHI increases from 1 to something like 2.5-3, with most of them being very obvious OA and hypopneas and considerably more FL. This is true even when I raise my pressure from 10cm to 15 (yes, that much).
With the nasal pillow at 10cm, I almost never get any OA's, but my sleep isn't refreshing at all. I might try the cervical collar option, but the thought of adding even more stuff to my face bums me out alot...

tl424 wrote:Thanks for the reply Jay,

When I use my FFM, my AHI increases from 1 to something like 2.5-3, with most of them being very obvious OA and hypopneas and considerably more FL. This is true even when I raise my pressure from 10cm to 15 (yes, that much).
With the nasal pillow at 10cm, I almost never get any OA's, but my sleep isn't refreshing at all. I might try the cervical collar option, but the thought of adding even more stuff to my face bums me out alot...

I hear ya', but remember, the AHI is just a number. Treating sleep apnea and refreshing sleep is the goal. An AHI under 5 is considered treated. I think I'd go for refreshing.

tl424 wrote:Hi all,

I was wondering if there are any full face masks you might know that wont push on the lower jaw much?. Thanks!

if you think about it, the only way a FFM would not push your jaw backwards is if it hooked, not onto the back of your head, but onto the back of your jawbone.

palerider wrote:if you think about it, the only way a FFM would not push your jaw backwards is if it hooked, not onto the back of your head, but onto the back of your jawbone.

That's sounds patentable, PR. Maybe you should work on that. Implanted studs, perhaps?

Jay Aitchsee wrote:

palerider wrote:if you think about it, the only way a FFM would not push your jaw backwards is if it hooked, not onto the back of your head, but onto the back of your jawbone.

That's sounds patentable, PR. Maybe you should work on that. Implanted studs, perhaps?

meh, too much liability maybe a mouth grip, sort of a hybrid between the oracle/tappap and other FFM?

palerider wrote:

Jay Aitchsee wrote:

palerider wrote:if you think about it, the only way a FFM would not push your jaw backwards is if it hooked, not onto the back of your head, but onto the back of your jawbone.

That's sounds patentable, PR. Maybe you should work on that. Implanted studs, perhaps?

meh, too much liability maybe a mouth grip, sort of a hybrid between the oracle/tappap and other FFM?

Yeah, I think you're on to something there!

tl424 wrote:Hi all,

I was wondering if there are any full face masks you might know that wont push on the lower jaw much? The reason I ask because I have realized that my AHI is always 2-3 times higher than when I use my nasal mask (My conjecture is that FFM's push my jaw back, narrowing my airway). However, even with the higher AHI from FFM's I always wake up feeling more refreshed than I do with nasal masks, possibly because of no mouthleaks, and would like to stick to using full face masks. I currently have the F&P Simplus, Mirage Quattro, and the F10. Thanks!

A full face mask should not have to be tightened that tight. They should "float" on your face. If you're having problems sealing them, check to see that they're the proper size, properly adjusted and that your bed pillow isn't pushing them out of alignment.

Not all full face masks (like other masks) are created equal or will work for each user. The one I've been using for over 11 years is the one in my profile. It was the very first one I picked. But, over the years, I've tried a few others which I'd categorize in a range from "OK" to "torture devices".


Den

.

so, I got interested in 'how tight does a mask have to be'.

the oft repeated 'it should float on your face' (like a hovercraft) does miss one point about hovercraft, they 'leak' like the devil! note the water spray around the skirt:

not really something we want out of our masks.

figuring rough measurements of my full face mask, I got about 19 square centimeters of open area under the 'skirt', or about 2.94501 square inches. 10 cm of pressure works out to 0.142233 PSI, so a bit of math indicates that my small mask is going to be pushing against my face, at 10cm, with a force of nearly half a pound. (0.424767627) raise that pressure, or the mask size, and it'll push harder. and, of course, the straps have to be tighter than that, to keep it from leaking like the proverbial hovercraft.

that is, assuming I didn't drop a decimal somewhere in my math.

palerider wrote:so, I got interested in 'how tight does a mask have to be'.

the oft repeated 'it should float on your face' (like a hovercraft) does miss one point about hovercraft, they 'leak' like the devil! note the water spray around the skirt:

not really something we want out of our masks.

figuring rough measurements of my full face mask, I got about 19 square centimeters of open area under the 'skirt', or about 2.94501 square inches. 10 cm of pressure works out to 0.142233 PSI, so a bit of math indicates that my small mask is going to be pushing against my face, at 10cm, with a force of nearly half a pound. (0.424767627) raise that pressure, or the mask size, and it'll push harder. and, of course, the straps have to be tighter than that, to keep it from leaking like the proverbial hovercraft.

that is, assuming I didn't drop a decimal somewhere in my math.

I want one of those... you don't have to dock then load your gear into your car. Simply blast on up the beach, down the street and right to your front door! Uh, were we talking about masks, I lost my train of thought!

tl424 wrote:Hi all,

I was wondering if there are any full face masks you might know that wont push on the lower jaw much? The reason I ask because I have realized that my AHI is always 2-3 times higher than when I use my nasal mask (My conjecture is that FFM's push my jaw back, narrowing my airway). However, even with the higher AHI from FFM's I always wake up feeling more refreshed than I do with nasal masks, possibly because of no mouthleaks, and would like to stick to using full face masks. I currently have the F&P Simplus, Mirage Quattro, and the F10. Thanks!

I had a similar experience when I changed from the Amara View mask to a Deamwear nasal mask. With the Amara I was averaging an AHI of about 3. When I changed to the Dreamwear the AHI average dropped to 1. Despite the drop I felt about the same so I stayed with the Dreamwear as overall I found it to be more comfortable. The only reason I could come up with for the drop was because the Dreamwear is more amenable to side sleeping I might be spending more time sleeping on my side. Your suggestion that the mask pushing the jaw back is causing the difference seems very plausible. Perhaps one of those mouth pieces to hold the jaw in position might give you the same low AHI you got with the nasal mask.