Inspiration expiration ratio

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
Jay Aitchsee
Posts: 2936
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Southwest Florida

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:19 am

Thanks, Ron

Here's some similar links put together by Robysue. They contain a fair amount of info regarding PR machines.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111653#p1072131
robysue wrote:Folks,

This post is really a bookkeeping post for me that includes some links to documents that relate to certain topics that seem to come up on a regular basis. And I can't always find them when I want them, so I'm making a post that I'll be able to search for.

C-Flex, C-Flex+, and A-Flex and how they lower the pressure: See http://advancemedical.cl/pdf/PR-REMstar ... Manual.pdf. This is a pdf of the PR System One (Series 50) Provider Manual. Page 7 describes Flex in its full complexity. And it also states:
When A-Flex (C-Flex+) is enabled, it enhances patient comfort in three ways: 1) by smoothing the transition between the end of inhalation and the beginning of exhalation, 2) by providing significant pressure relief during the beginning of exhalation, and 3) by reaching an end exhalation pressure of no more than 2 cm H2O below the high point of inspiration.


The PR System One (and I assume the DreamStation's) definitions for scoring events: See http://advancemedical.cl/pdf/PR-REMstar ... Manual.pdf. The definitions are on page 8. Briefly, the definitions are:
  • Apnea. The PR scores an apnea when there is an 80% reduction in airflow for >= 10 seconds (or no airflow for >= 10 seconds); the PP are used to distinguish whether the apnea is scored as an OA or a CA
  • Hypopnea. The PR scores a hypopnea when there is a 40-80% reduction in airflow for >= 10 seconds
  • RERA. The PR scores a RERA when the criteria for scoring an apnea or hypopnea are not met, but there is a sequence of breaths that exhibit both a subtle reduction in airflow and progressive flow limitation and this breath sequence is terminated by a sudden increase in airflow along with the absence of flow limitation. (The "sudden increase in airflow" are the large "recovery breaths" that are indicate the high probability that an EEG arousal did occur.)
  • Periodic Breathing. PB is defined as a persistent waning and waxing breathing pattern which repeats itself for a period of time between 30 and 100 seconds, and the nadir of the breathing pattern is characterized by at least a 40% reduction in airflow from an established baseline flow. The pattern must be present for several minutes before it can be identified as periodic breathing. This makes it sound like you should expect an H or an apnea to be scored in the nadir, but in practice that doesn't always happen. There may be something more subtle going on in terms of scoring events when the machine flags PB.
  • Flow Limitation. To score FLs, the guide says that machine looks for relative changes in the peak, flatness, roundness, or shape (skewness) of the inspiratory portion of the airflow waveform. These changes are observed both over a short period of time (groups of 4 breaths) and over a long period of time (several minutes). Statistical measures are used to help minimize false event detection while allowing the device to be sensitive to even small changes.
  • Snores. Unfortunately this document does not provide any illumination on the difference between what we now think of as VS1 and VS2 snores due to JediMark's hard work. There is this cryptic note about snoring however: "Vibratory snore is disabled at pressures greater than 16 cm H2O." I wonder if that means that snores are not recorded at pressures above 16 or if it means that the machine does not increase the pressure in response to snoring when the pressure is above 16. Is there anybody using a PR System One Auto at pressures > 16 who can share some insight into what their machine does?
The best documented bench testing of the PR, Resmed, F&P, and Coviden Auto algorithms is unfortunately from 2009 and hence it uses the PR M-Series, Resmed S8, F&P SleepStyle220, Coviden Sandman machines. Certainly some updating of the algorithms has been done on subsequent generations of autos from these manufacturers, but at least in the case of PR and Resmed, the current algorithms have been designed with many of the same basic underlying principles. The bench test can be found at http://www.sleepreviewmag.com/2009/09/a ... -pressure/

There is a current 2015 benchtest at http://openres.ersjournals.com/content/ ... 5.full.pdf, but it does not go into as much depth as the 2009 study does.

The PR Search Algorithm is documented in some detail from this old PR web page https://www.usa.philips.com/b-dam/b2bhc ... 0FINAL.pdf It's written for the old M-series, but it seems that PR still uses much the same "Search" algorithm today.


Details about the Resmed S9 AutoSet algorithm are found in this white paper from Resmed: http://www.resmed.com/fr/assets/documen ... -paper.pdf. My guess is that most of the changes between the S9 and the new A10 are minor, with the exception of the RERA detection in the new "AutoSet for Her" mode, which was introduced in the S9 AutoSet for Her model a couple of years after this paper was written.

Details about the AutoSet for Her algorithm can be found in this white paper from Resmed: http://www.resmed.com/us/dam/documents/ ... orithm.pdf

Event Scoring and Machine Response to Events. There is a table in a new white paper at the NIH that can be found at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... der-8-425/ that is chock-full of all kinds of technical information about the criteria that Resmed, PR, and DeVilbass machines use to detect apneas, hypopneas, and flow limitations. The table also included detailed information about how each of the Auto algorithms respond to apneas, hypopneas, flow limitations, and snoring.

A recent white paper from NIH that is titled Treatment of sleep-disordered breathing with positive airway pressure devices: technology update can be found at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629962/. It looks at some of the different kinds of PAPs that are out on the market. There's also some very technical information about how Resmed and PR machines detect the start of inhalation and the start of exhalation, which is critical in tracking and following our breathing when implementing exhalation relief or when using bilevel. This paper has a really useful

I'm also adding some links to a couple of papers that I don't have time to read now, but I also don't want to lose the links for.

Here's a 2014 paper in the Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine that is about using APAP and home testing for OSA. https://go.aastweb.org/Resources/journa ... bfeb15.pdf

Information about the current AASM rules for scoring hypopneas seems to be included in these two links: The upshot seems to be that the AASM wants to move towards one common definition for scoring hypopneas on PSGs, but there's been enough push back from Medicare and other insurers to force the AASM to continue to accept the "old" standard.

In short: The recommended standard for scoring a hypopnea now requires both of the following:
  • A reduction in airflow of at least 30% from baseline that lasts at least 10 seconds
  • Either an associated 3% drop in O2 OR an associated EEG arousal at the end of the event
Medicare and some other insurers still insist on a 4% drop in O2. A smaller drop in O2 or an EEG arousal without an O2 desat won't count. Hence labs are still allowed to use the "4% O2 desat" rule for scoring hypopneas.

A new paper on Research Gate (which I think you can get to even without logging in) entiled New Approaches to Diagnosing Sleep-Disordered Breathing at https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Breathing has some useful information about what's being done in terms of home testing.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: S9 Auto, P10 mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead V1.B2, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

User avatar
Jay Aitchsee
Posts: 2936
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Southwest Florida

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:48 am

Question:

This thread began with a question about an abnormal (I.e., "Inverse") I:E ratio. The OP used SleepyHead to compare average Inspiration time to average Expiration time to arrive at an I:E ratio. The OP's machine is a PR System One REMStar 60 Auto CPAP (PR 560). Subsequently, a second poster, apparently using the same or similar machine, mentioned a possible abnormal I:E ratio as well. The "official" software to extract data from these machines would be some form of Encore.

I can find no mention of Encore presenting this data (specifically Inspiration and Expiration times) with these machines (doesn't mean that it doesn't).

My question is this: Is this data (Inspiration and Expiration times) as presented by Sleepyhead reliable for these machines, since I can find no reference that Phillips Respironics intended it to be extracted and used in this manner? Or, is this a construct by SleepyHead which may not accurately represent the data under all circumstances, particularly in the presence of Ballistocardiographic Artifacts?


Edited: 4 times just to add: Ballistocardiographic Artifacts

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: S9 Auto, P10 mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead V1.B2, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video
Last edited by Jay Aitchsee on Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 64932
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pugsy » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:19 am

I know nothing about I:E ratios
but I know something about
there are events of shorter than 10 seconds duration.
And I assume you are referring to the numbers in parentheses under the Events tab

See this thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112563&view=unread#unread
and read what I just posted a short time ago as explanation as to what the numbers in parentheses mean.
I think it is 5th post from the top of the page
Jay Aitchsee wrote: My question is this: Is this data (Inspiration and Expiration times) as presented by Sleepyhead reliable for these machines, since I can find no reference that Phillips Respironics intended it to be extracted and used in this manner? Or, is this a construct by SleepyHead which may not accurately represent the data under all circumstances?


Beats me. I have no idea how or why this data is there or how accurate it really is.
I also wonder if Encore also reports it...and if so does it report the same results.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

User avatar
Jay Aitchsee
Posts: 2936
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Southwest Florida

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:47 am

Thanks Pugsy,

Yes, I think the OP did have a question about events shorter that 10 sec.

But my question, and much of the thread above, has to do with the length of time spent in each portion of the breath cycle. That is, the number of seconds of each cycle of Inspiration compared to the number of seconds of each cycle in expiration. In other words, the positive portion of the Flow Wave compared to negative portion. Typically, the inspiration period is shorter than the expiration period and otherwise could suggest a problem.
Pugsy wrote:I also wonder if Encore also reports it...and if so does it report the same results.
And that gets to the crux of the question.
Jay Aitchsee wrote:My question is this: Is this data (Inspiration and Expiration times) as presented by Sleepyhead reliable for these machines, since I can find no reference that Phillips Respironics intended it to be extracted and used in this manner? Or, is this a construct by SleepyHead which may not accurately represent the data under all circumstances, particularly in the presence of Ballistocardiographic Artifacts?

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: S9 Auto, P10 mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead V1.B2, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 64932
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pugsy » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:28 am

Jay Aitchsee wrote:But my question, and much of the thread above, has to do with the length of time spent in each portion of the breath cycle.
I have been following the thread but since I don't know much about I:E ratios or what they mean I have stayed out of the discussion because I have nothing constructive to add.
I:E stuff is something I haven't ever studied. Never was an issue for me so I simply never went digging into that stuff. Even now my eyes glaze over when I read about it.
I don't know how accurate the machine is designed to be...and I don't know just how critical looking at stuff at this minute level under the microscope really is or what it means or doesn't mean.
This is all stuff that probably would be best discussed with a real pulmonologist and preferably one that knows his stuff about sleep disordered breathing.
Hence my decision a long time ago not to dig deep into this particular area because there are so many potential variables that fall into "within acceptable limits" range.

I am currently trialing a PR S1 560...it doesn't even give I:E stuff in either SleepyHead or Encore Pro..I just looked to make sure.
So it must be something added to the new DreamStation models. I wonder if Encore Pro would even show it?

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

rkl122
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:46 am
Location: NJ

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by rkl122 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:41 am

Pugsy wrote:............I assume you are referring to the numbers in parentheses under the Events tab

See this thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112563&view=unread#unread
and read what I just posted a short time ago as explanation as to what the numbers in parentheses mean.
I think it is 5th post from the top of the page
Pugsy, I've done the same measurement you describe (using SH, and zooming in so the greyed event occupied most of the width of the screen), but I got different results. I looked at many events on different nights. The measurement of elapsed time of the event - from border to border - when rounded to nearest second, was always the same as the number in parentheses. When you think about it, that's as it should be. They are just two different ways that SH displays the same data. And with the machine sampling flow at 125 Hz, each data point should easily be accurate to the nearest second.

I'm the OP. As Jay says, this thread isn't principally about durations. I was going to bring them up in a separate thread, but let me just repeat here that I get OA's and CA's every night fewer than 10 sec duration as measured by SH. Occasionally as brief as 6 seconds.

I wanted to confirm my measurements using EncoreBasic, but the waveform display doesn't present event durations in a precise fashion. I never was able to install the Pro.

-Ron

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear - Fit Pack (All Cushions Included with Medium Frame)
Additional Comments: Pmin10,max14;; SleepyHead 1.0.0.beta2. 08/2018: Switched from: PR System One REMStar 60 Auto CPAP (PR 560),

Pneumophile
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 12:14 am

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pneumophile » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:43 am

Pugsy,
I've got the same blower. You're right, the software I use (Sleepyhead) doesn't show ratios which is a shame but of course it is easy to come up with a fairly accurate ratio of average inspiration and expiration times. Take the average I and E values over a given period of time and do the math.

I discovered I have an I/E ratio of about 1.5 consistently over a number of days; I inspire for longer than I expire. What this might mean clinically I have no idea. I will ask my poor unsuspecting sleep doc about this when I next see him.

_________________
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR System One REMStar Auto CPAP with A-Flex
Last edited by Pneumophile on Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
Respironics System One APAP (Model 560)

rkl122
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:46 am
Location: NJ

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by rkl122 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:51 am

Pugsy wrote:............
I am currently trialing a PR S1 560...it doesn't even give I:E stuff in either SleepyHead or Encore Pro..I just looked to make sure.
So it must be something added to the new DreamStation models. I wonder if Encore Pro would even show it?
That's my machine too. Don't you get the lines I've highlighted in yellow here?:

http://imgur.com/a/EU0Y5

When we speak of ratios, we're generating them from those two summary lines.

-Ron

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear - Fit Pack (All Cushions Included with Medium Frame)
Additional Comments: Pmin10,max14;; SleepyHead 1.0.0.beta2. 08/2018: Switched from: PR System One REMStar 60 Auto CPAP (PR 560),

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 64932
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pugsy » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:19 am

rkl122 wrote: I wanted to confirm my measurements using EncoreBasic, but the waveform display doesn't present event durations in a precise fashion. I never was able to install the Pro.
Pro won't do it either because the machine doesn't do it either. Waveform in Pro is the same as Waveform in Basic. The reports from Pro and Basic are identical...the difference between Pro and Basic is that Pro uses the problematic SQL database thing and Basic does not...and Basic only saves the last waveform and Pro lets you see old waveforms if you want to.

If you see a single digit in parentheses...like say 8...that's not 8 seconds unless you have altered SH so that you can use "user defined definitions". It's going to be at least a 10 second apnea event of some sort.
The machine simply will not flag any flow reduction if it doesn't meet criteria and 10 seconds is part of the criteria.
Now if you have elected to add in user defined events into the mix....that's a whole different story.

The software reports what the machine gathers and the machine has definite criteria that needs to be met before a flag is earned.
I won't argue the point with you...but there are no 8 sec apnea events that will earn a flag by the machine...ain't gonna happen. They must be at a minimum 10 seconds.

Now this is interesting though.
rkl122 wrote:Don't you get the lines I've highlighted in yellow here?:
Nope...I don't get those lines.
This is what I get. Now this is one of the 560 models with Bluetooth so I don't know if that makes any difference or not. And the reason I am trialing it is because it is acting weird...so I don't know if that weirdness involves the lack of IE stuff or not. Long story that I don't have time to go into right now.
Image

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

User avatar
Jay Aitchsee
Posts: 2936
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Southwest Florida

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:51 am

Pneumophile wrote:Pugsy,
I've got the same blower. You're right, the software I use (Sleepyhead) doesn't show ratios which is a shame but of course it is easy to come up with a fairly accurate ratio of average inspiration and expiration times. Take the average I and E values over a given period of time and do the math.

I discovered I have an I/E ratio of about 1.5 consistently over a number of days; I inspire for longer than I expire. What this might mean clinically I have no idea. I will ask my poor unsuspecting sleep doc about this when I next see him.
Let me say again, that I:E is not a term that would typically be used for diagnostics. It is used in applying ventilation. That's why many machines don't report it, they are not ventilators. The ones that do report it are typically models in that brand's ventilator series, such as VPAP from ResMed. Inverse I:E, which is the concern that prompted this thread, is a strategy of applied ventilation to promote patient oxygenation by holding the Inspiration period longer than the expiration period. Used in the only context in which it truly applies, Inverse I:E is neither normal or abnormal. It is a strategy, a method of applying ventilation. In fact, RR, VT, IT, ET, and I:E are all terms are most often used in Non invasive ventilation rather than in typical CPAP therapy and that's why they are not seen in non ventilating machines.

While comparing averages of inspiration to expiration will probably yield an idea of the overall I:E, I challenge the accuracy of doing so. I:E is a per breath measure and is time dependent as discussed a few posts above.

Pneumophile, if you would examine your flow wave closely, as we have done with Ron's above, I'm guessing you would see the Ballistocardiograhic Artifacts present. I am further guessing that SleepyHead is incorrectly using the apparent positive Flows created by these artifacts to mark the end of Expiration yielding an incorrectly short expiration time and by extension an incorrectly long I:E.

Ron, you could probably partially test this hypothesis by looking at the instantaneous computed IT and ET of SleepyHead while examining one breath of the flow to determine actual IT and ET.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: S9 Auto, P10 mask, P=7.0, EPR3, ResScan 5.3, SleepyHead V1.B2, Windows 10, ZEO, CMS50F, Infrared Video

Pneumophile
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 12:14 am

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pneumophile » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:26 pm

Jay, thanks for your patient and very detailed response. I learned a lot from what you wrote and will now go back and more carefully read earlier posts in this thread. I believe that I do understand your points. I'll still ask my sleep doc - we'll see what HE comes up with. He's a neuro who may or may not have real expertise in OSA. We shall see. Chasing down artefacts is not something I enjoy spending time or energy on either.

p.s. but I will go hunting for my own personal Ballistocardiographic Artifacts - good dinner table conversation ....

_________________
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR System One REMStar Auto CPAP with A-Flex
Last edited by Pneumophile on Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Respironics System One APAP (Model 560)

rkl122
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:46 am
Location: NJ

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by rkl122 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:32 pm

Pugsy wrote:............

If you see a single digit in parentheses...like say 8...that's not 8 seconds unless you have altered SH so that you can use "user defined definitions". It's going to be at least a 10 second apnea event of some sort.
The machine simply will not flag any flow reduction if it doesn't meet criteria and 10 seconds is part of the criteria.
Now if you have elected to add in user defined events into the mix....that's a whole different story.

The software reports what the machine gathers and the machine has definite criteria that needs to be met before a flag is earned.
I won't argue the point with you...but there are no 8 sec apnea events that will earn a flag by the machine...ain't gonna happen. They must be at a minimum 10 seconds. ...........
Pugsy please look at: http://imgur.com/eENlV6G Compare the yellowed area with the parenthetical value. Exactly six seconds. I see events like this every night, more frequently 8 & 9 seconds, many with substantial flow in them. I don't want to argue either, but I do want to understand if we're talking about the same thing. I did use UDF's at the SH default values for a while, but I turned them off and accepted SH's recomputation of the data. I just don't remember whether I had these <10 sec events prior to doing that, but I don't see how I could have made a permanent alteration in SH's behavior. Does nobody else see this?

Good to know about EncorePro limitations. BTW, thx for posting an inline image - I'll study the code so I can do that too.

-Ron

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear - Fit Pack (All Cushions Included with Medium Frame)
Additional Comments: Pmin10,max14;; SleepyHead 1.0.0.beta2. 08/2018: Switched from: PR System One REMStar 60 Auto CPAP (PR 560),

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 64932
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by Pugsy » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:46 pm

You are assuming that is where the event starts and stops...but to my eye...I can't tell where it stops and stops.
Believe what you want to believe...I am not going to argue to the point with you but the definition of apnea events all include the 10 second thing.
You can't prove to me that where you think it starts and stops is where the machine thinks it starts and stops.
Sorry...but not worth arguing over so I won't go there. The machine will not flag a 6 second air flow reduction as any sort of apnea event.

For how to post images like I just did.
1...Make sure you are logged in to your Imgur account.
2...Click on the image you wish you share.
3...Look on the right side of the image for the box of addresses
4...Right below the box of addresses are the various size thumbnail choices
5...Click on "Large Thumbnail"...this changes the addresses in some way with codes
6...Copy the last line/bottom in the address box after you have click on "large thumbnail"
7...Paste that copied address into the body of your text here and you will get an image of a size that is readable but if we need to enlarge it then we can click on it and then go enlarge it.

That way you get an image that shows up in the body of your text...and we don't have to click on a link....and we only have to enlarge it if we need to.
Normally "large thumbnail" is sufficient for most reading or viewing.

Often when I have to do the link (like you have been posting) my internet connection won't let the image load for me...so I prefer to see the image in the text right up front...saves me work and headache.
Often I don't bother to click on image links and thus don't bother to comment when my connection is sucky.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

User avatar
palerider
Posts: 32299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:43 pm
Location: Dallas(ish).

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by palerider » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:59 pm

Jay Aitchsee wrote:My question is this: Is this data (Inspiration and Expiration times) as presented by Sleepyhead reliable for these machines, since I can find no reference that Phillips Respironics intended it to be extracted and used in this manner? Or, is this a construct by SleepyHead which may not accurately represent the data under all circumstances, particularly in the presence of Ballistocardiographic Artifacts?
welll, maybe and yes.

watkins doesn't put any effort into thinking about whether something should be shown, he sees something, (or sometimes thinks he does) in the data, and slaps it up there so everything is there, even if nobody knows what it means. there's a number in the datastream, put it up, doesn't matter if it's confusing people, or meaningless. *shrug*

don't get me wrong, for the most part, SH is great, but it rapidly gets into the weeds in the details.

_________________
Mask: Bleep DreamPort CPAP Mask Solution
Additional Comments: S9 VPAP Auto
Get OSCAR

Accounts to put on the foe list: dataq1, clownbell, gearchange, lynninnj, mper!?, DreamDiver, Geer1, almostadoctor, sleepgeek, ajack, stom, mogy, D.H., They often post misleading, timewasting stuff.

User avatar
palerider
Posts: 32299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:43 pm
Location: Dallas(ish).

Re: Inspiration expiration ratio

Post by palerider » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:02 pm

rkl122 wrote:Pugsy, I've done the same measurement you describe (using SH, and zooming in so the greyed event occupied most of the width of the screen), but I got different results. I looked at many events on different nights. The measurement of elapsed time of the event - from border to border - when rounded to nearest second, was always the same as the number in parentheses. When you think about it, that's as it should be. They are just two different ways that SH displays the same data. And with the machine sampling flow at 125 Hz, each data point should easily be accurate to the nearest second.
one important point you're missing is that different versions of sleepyhead present the *same* data differently, as the interpretation of the data changes over time.

_________________
Mask: Bleep DreamPort CPAP Mask Solution
Additional Comments: S9 VPAP Auto
Get OSCAR

Accounts to put on the foe list: dataq1, clownbell, gearchange, lynninnj, mper!?, DreamDiver, Geer1, almostadoctor, sleepgeek, ajack, stom, mogy, D.H., They often post misleading, timewasting stuff.