Food for thought for anyone with Mild Sleep Apnea

stienman wrote:

Noctuary wrote:

CPAP always works, when the therapy is adhered to. This is why people call it the "gold standard" for sleep apnea therapy.

Or not.

You're right, I added an "almost" in there.

for some people, nothing works

As with all things, different perspective and insufficient accuracy in conveyance can lead to people coming to different conclusions or understandings.
I will do my best to address you all in 1 post.

I never said that sleep apnea was weight based. Instead I said I developed sleep apnea after gaining more weight. How do I know? Because the symptoms of mental fatigue ensued at that precise moment in time; when I gained X weight.
Now I want to try to reconvey something I apparently did a piss poor job the first time.
You have to understand that I developed sleep apnea in my 20s while I gained a certain weight which increased the fatty tissue in places which lead to airway obstruction; that much is certain. Whatever it is that gets fatter to block the airway I say matters not, and I will tell you why. I justify my throat having nothing to do with my sleep apnea because there's not much opportunity for fatty tissue in the throat to cause the obstruction; as I understand throat muscle relaxation is an order of magnitude more probable to cause the obstruction, but like I said before I gained those extra pounds, my throat muscles weren't causing an obstruction; why would they after gaining weight; the muscle don't change, and like I said there is no opportunity for fatty tissue in the throat to cause the obstruction. Now hold on just a minute, my definition of throat here is below where the airway physically begins. Above that there is plenty of opportunity for fatty tissue to cause obstruction. Now if you have your mind's eye above my definition of throat, and you know with absolute certain that the tongue muscles relax when you sleep as they do, then you realize okay so I got fat at the back of my throat, who cares, lets make the door shorter; lets cut the back of the tongue so that it can deal with the new reality and increased weight gain. It's a very simple idea that I feel has been overlooked in the past do to the difficulty involved with cutting the back of the tongue, I myself if I was a med student would procrastinate as long as possible before doing any such surgery, it's a little intimidating. But the tools have evolved, and it is now more plausible to do this on a regular basis (as part of a standard for surgery for sleep apnea). And I feel like if they did this, then the failure rate would be much less high because fundamentally what CPAP does is push air through your airway, pushing back anything such as the tongue out of the way, and by doing so also supplying oxygen. But the supply of oxygen, I feel is only warranted for Central sleep apnea; where the brain doesn't work so well if I can be allowed to say that without offending anyone as I do not mean to. CPAP is simple which is why it works, and though cutting the back of the tongue is nowhere near as simple as CPAP, I think its an effective solution that is not recommended enough. There are too many surgery types clouding the arena which I think is one of the reasons surgery has a bad rep, aside from the difficulty involved. Now listen folks, I understand that throat muscles relax, and there are other things that can cause the obstruction; I'm not saying cutting the back of the tongue is for everyone. I'm saying, I was 20, slept wonderful all my life, I gained weight then I got sleep apnea and now I sleep like shit with my boss always thinking; well I think you know exactly what I mean. If throat relaxation was a problem, I think it would have been a problem all my life, same with any nose issue, for that reason I am positive that despite whatever is causing the blockage above my throat, that the tongue whether by its fault or not, is the main thing that needs to be dealt with, and I think this is true for many others. How many I'm not a doctor, nor one who has seen many sleep apnea patients. I hope that clarifies things. So julie, the problem I think with sleep apnea surgery is that they have a bunch of bullshit surgeries. I will be bold and say it, if they aint cutting the back of the tongue, there is great probability of failure. The tongue is the main and biggest barrier and I think it causes the issue for most though I cannot say this with absolute certainty. And as for MSRA, you gotta use your head right. Like if every day, you are reading the paper and you read stuff about MRSA at your local hospital... MRSA I would suggest despite it being a nationwide problem is ultimately dependent on how the hospital is managed, who is there, and what is the quality of the state of mind (I don't mean book smart) of the people that work there. Are they consistent, do they offload adequately etc... Common sense, but many people don't have it, yikes. Also you could also act paranoid about MRSA in the hospital and depending on how you execute that may work for you or against you Btw, it should be noted that I do not attack CPAP in any way; it's bullet proof based on the way it works it cannot fail. It's the fastest solution, you don't need any further analysis, but just because its bulletproof doesn't make it the best. I would say if I can fix sleep apnea without having someone breath down my throat every second, that is 10X better, thank you very much.

If the inspire procedure exists, I will consider it.

If tried all sorts of CPAP machines and masks.
There are two main problems.
One the pressure is slightly too high, can me a puss, but I can't handle a 6; alright laugh away
The other problem is that I breath irregularly which is not compatible with the basic CPAP and I don't qualify for anything but the basic.
The only reason CPAP is considered the gold standard is because scientifically it cannot fail short of the pump failing, and it simultaneously treats obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea, whereas surgery can only deal with obstruction.
Again, I want to reiterate the horrible track record of surgery on sleep apnea. There are three reasons; 1. Lot's of bullshit precedures 2. Not enough back of tongue surgery (as in my opinion this by nature is the most sure thing) unless there is evidence of throat or nose problems. 3. back of tongue surgery not so easy in the past. Easier now, but still some degree of difficult not too difficult to imagine. 4. The health system is overcrowded and surgery is more expensive therefore basically anyone with power will say ~love~, pap first, surgery for those who cannot tolerate; this is different depending on where you live so don't hammer for this one. We get the shit end of the stick, man would I love to give those people sleep apnea; i'm kidding.

Indeed one must understand all the side effects before going on with any surgery.
Do I understand all the side effects with cutting the back of the tongue; no.
Is it possible that the side effects would make CPAP king again; yes.
Do I foresee, CPAP being king; no, ~love~ cpap.
I think cutting the back of the tongue is pretty permanent, that won't be a problem no more; I'm messing ya just a little.

And now for the part I really want to comment on aerobic exercise and stretching.
You see as I tend to be fuzzy in the brain when I'm at work, I had the idea of sleep without a pillow; more blood to the brain I thought.
But then I realized, ~love~, my tongue will choke me more as I sleep in a supine position (fancy for sleepy on your back).
Therein comes aerobic exercise for two reasons that I know of.
One, I imagine the blood vessels in the brain are not too big. So it follows that pushing the heart to pump up to 3x harder (below 200 guys, alright don't sew me) is a good idea especially for US.
Another reason it's a good idea has to do with the VO2 oxygen. The idea is, as your body starves from oxygen during physical activity, a particular gland will produce more red blood which less simplify and say that especially for us means more energy. But the key is to push yourself to the max to get the most benefit, and you only need to do this once a day, and it doesn't have to be jogging, anything that gets your heart rate to 180 works.
Now I talk vitamins just a bit as I don't know about you, but I feel I have to be my own doctor, because unless the doctor sees cancer staring him in the face....pauvre canada
The only vitamin that has made a difference is omega 3 and protein. Omega 3 is not only for developing brains, its for starving brains too ~love~
Now as for stretching, clearly are starved brain doesn't need any extra work load but the pinched nerves in your spine do exactly that and the fancy word for that is sublexation (google it not sure on the spelling).
Luckily there is a secret to dealing with this for free, ok 2 secrets. One is keeping good posture, and if you want to garantee that as much as possible then you will either be standing or laying down all day and rarely sitting; yikes.
But sitting promotes bad posture and is an insult to men; as we must bolster an increasing image of strength. The other secret is a technique in which you take a chair where the top of the back rest touches the middle of your back.
Time to go chair hunting, lols; no it's not a wild goose hunt; this will help anyone. Then what you do is first you sit in this chair perfectly, then you curl your back onto it, and don't forget to breathe and listen to your body. If it hurts, it means the top of the back either cannot get in between the bones along your spine OR there is no sublexation at that particular point. So what you do is you begin to slouch little by little, curling your back and breathing until you are about to fall off the chair, and when you execute this correctly, you will thank you, thank you good sir. Do this at the beginning and end of your day.
Now that will definitely improve your sleep and make you feel better if done right, but it's not a cure all. Basically assume everything in your body is in the wrong place such that everything is messed up. When you stretch your whole body you can identify what is messed up, like why is it so much easier to pull one leg behind to touch my ass, and can barely grip the other leg. This is an example of a problem that will cause disbalance in your body = added stress. So really you need to stretch not just to prevent injury, but also to prevent problems that will only manifest themselves over long periods of time, and you would have never guessed it was because you didn't stretch and treat the unbalance. Your range of motion from left to right must be the same. Anything else is unacceptable, but is reality. But try as much as possible to make them match, and this takes a time and practice.

Good luck to all

. I justify my throat having nothing to do with my sleep apnea because there's not much opportunity for fatty tissue in the throat to cause the obstruction; as I understand throat muscle relaxation is an order of magnitude more probable to cause the obstruction, but like I said before I gained those extra pounds, my throat muscles weren't causing an obstruction; why would they after gaining weight; the muscle don't change

Wrong again.
There will be fatty deposits in your neck requiring your muscles to work harder to keep your throat open. That is why one of the characteristics that is looked for is a fat neck!

Plus there can be combinations, some apnea causing a little bit of tiredness screwing up your hormones causing you to eat more which makes for a fat neck causing more apnea.

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe the entire medical field has managed to figure out obstructive apnea in the last 60 years? People with actual knowledge of anatomy?

Just my opinion, not so many words.

Mild sleep apnea is considered more in the 5 to 15 range.

There is NO WAY IN HELL I would consider treating the extreme mild range of OSA you claim to have, with surgery. You are crazy for even considering surgery for mild OSA, short of something like, obvious tonsillitis, severe nasal deformity (broken nose or chronic sinusitis).

CPAP is the gold standard. Weight loss helps as well.

Actually, Ive found that a lot of aerobic exercise increases my AHI oftentimes. Why? I dont know, really. But my subjective, gut feeling and the way I feel when I exercise aerobically regularly is, Im consistently more relaxed. Aerobic exercise when done heavy and consistent is a potent stress burner and if I exercise aerobically consistently, I can always tell Im way more relaxed, I fall asleep earlier in the night and my sleep is usually deeper feeling. And with that, I tend to get higher pressures, because I relax more in my sleep.

My AHI may not change when I increase aerobically on a regular basis (I exercise aerobically consistently half the year, when its warm from about March thru the end of October). But my pressures do increase when I exercise aerobically regularly. Im more tired, Im more relaxed, I can only speculate my airway collapses more. I KNOW my pressures are slightly higher.

zen42 wrote:You may also consider exercise. I believe there are a few studies showing that an
aerobic exercise program reduces sleep apnia about 40% even if no weight is lost.
It helps my AHI some but not nearly enough but in your case with an AHI of 6 it
might be all you need.

BlackSpinner wrote:

. I justify my throat having nothing to do with my sleep apnea because there's not much opportunity for fatty tissue in the throat to cause the obstruction; as I understand throat muscle relaxation is an order of magnitude more probable to cause the obstruction, but like I said before I gained those extra pounds, my throat muscles weren't causing an obstruction; why would they after gaining weight; the muscle don't change

Wrong again.
There will be fatty deposits in your neck requiring your muscles to work harder to keep your throat open. That is why one of the characteristics that is looked for is a fat neck!

Plus there can be combinations, some apnea causing a little bit of tiredness screwing up your hormones causing you to eat more which makes for a fat neck causing more apnea.

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe the entire medical field has managed to figure out obstructive apnea in the last 60 years? People with actual knowledge of anatomy?

I'm afraid you don't see both sides of the coin.
Notwithstanding that the knowledge about sleep has barely made any head way in the last 60 years, here's what I have to say.
You go on saying that they figured everything out, yet the best they can do is hook you up to a machine for the rest of your life; there's a word for that, incompetence.
It's a competent solution for incompetent knowledge in the field.
So what there is neck fat, and under extreme circumstances, what you described does happen, so you have to bring that up just to be right lmao.
Let me put it succinctly, an endoscopy should obviously be done while asleep to get as much of a picture on the blockage as possible.
But the point is this, if relatively speaking the airway is obstruction free, then clearly the tongue is the guilty party as in this case it will clearly be the main blocker.
So cut the back of the tongue out and you have a much more involved but elegant solution. There's one of those perceptible words, elegance.

As for the guy who wouldn't do the surgery for mild sleep apnea, your loss.
That you think the idea is crazy is mind boggling to me.
It's like being against circumcision; what's a matter with ya.
It's not normal for the airway to be blocked during sleep; get that into your head.
It's not normal for a machine to push that open while you sleep either.
Your crazy.

ericore wrote:So cut the back of the tongue out and you have a much more involved but elegant solution. There's one of those perceptible words, elegance.

even cutting out your tongue wouldn't spare us, perhaps you could find someone to work on your fingers?

none of the surgeries for sleep apnea work well, with the exception of the old fashioned tracheostomy and the procedure where they break your lower jaw and move it forward. The latter procedure is the only surgical procedure approved by the U.S. military for sleep apnea treatment. And the trach is drastic. The UPPP and associated surgeries are a joke and cause more trouble than they are worth.

Good luck on finding a surgeon who would be willing to do either of the above two procedures on you for "mild" apnea. Especially extremely mild apnea of 5 AHI...LMFAO. The minute youre out the door, that surgeon is gonna be on his cell phone calling his buddies, "i got this idiot in here wanting me to trach him or break his jaw for an AHI of 5 or 6." And then he's gonna be laughing his ass off at you on behind your back.

On the other hand, you might be able to find a surgeon who thinks you are so friggin stupid and such a sucker, he might take your money and do the surgery on you. I guarantee you wont find any insurance that will pay for surgery for OSA that mild.

ericore wrote:

BlackSpinner wrote:

.
As for the guy who wouldn't do the surgery for mild sleep apnea, your loss.
That you think the idea is crazy is mind boggling to me.
It's like being against circumcision; what's a matter with ya.
It's not normal for the airway to be blocked during sleep; get that into your head.
It's not normal for a machine to push that open while you sleep either.
Your crazy.

ericore wrote: The only reason CPAP is considered the gold standard is because scientifically it cannot fail short of the pump failing, and it simultaneously treats obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea, whereas surgery can only deal with obstruction.

Although I’m sure you are just using “CPAP” as an umbrella term to encompass all machines for sleep apnea, I need to mention this in case there are people reading this who are not as familiar with the different types of machines. A CPAP machine, which is one straight pressure, cannot treat central sleep apnea, neither can an APAP with its variable pressure. They can tell you when you have a central, but can’t do anything about it. There are other more sophisticated machines for sleep apnea that can treat centrals. I know what other machines there are, but I’m not sure enough about which ones can do what to even mention them.

WearyOne wrote:

ericore wrote: The only reason CPAP is considered the gold standard... and it simultaneously treats obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea, whereas surgery can only deal with obstruction.

Although I’m sure you are just using “CPAP” as an umbrella term to encompass all machines for sleep apnea, I need to mention this in case there are people reading this who are not as familiar with the different types of machines. A CPAP machine, which is one straight pressure, cannot treat central sleep apnea, neither can an APAP with its variable pressure.

Good catch, I didn't read through the whole wall of drivel, and missed that particular bit of mis-information.

Well, ericore, it looks like you have chosen a path, and nothing we say is going to help you any further. Good luck on your journey, I encourage you to report back as you go through the process so we can see how well your plan works!

Has anyone considered the source here... break down the name... 'eric or e'? I don't expect newbies to get it, not your thing.

Julie wrote:Has anyone considered the source here... break down the name... 'eric or e'? I don't expect newbies to get it, not your thing.

Yup!!! I saw it yesterday afternoon................. he is back
Cheers
Nan

nanwilson wrote:

Julie wrote:Has anyone considered the source here... break down the name... 'eric or e'? I don't expect newbies to get it, not your thing.

Yup!!! I saw it yesterday afternoon................. he is back
Cheers
Nan

I don't know if you've noticed that 'mrgrumpy' whose profile says is from north carolina, has signed some of his posts 'eric'.

coincidence?