Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
Sircadian
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Sircadian » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:13 am

ButtermilkBuoy wrote:That's 15 years. It was wrong way back and liberals have been repeating the falsehood ever since. They love to feel like victims of something, anything.
Who cares how many years, or about any numbers, the point is still valid. Laughable really, so your saying this wonderful system doesn't have victims. You might want to read more, can I suggest Cpap.com for a starter. To think the problems are with people that care about people is ridiculous. The problem is greed/large scale gouging, 6o Minutes touched on some of them.

There is no debate on the quality of care, it's great for the percentage that can afford it.

For others, if you read carefully the political comments started in the OP. I don't vote here but find it strange how everything gets political in a big hurry. Instead of making suggestions to fix the problems in my first post it has turned into a left vs right debate. Seems many look past the corruption and focus on politics.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Ipap 11cm, no ramp,EPR-2,Sleepyhead & Rescan, Win 8.1(64 bit)

User avatar
Sheriff Buford
Posts: 4110
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Kingwood, Texas

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Sheriff Buford » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:03 pm

I know several folks here who lost their insurance... one of those "if you like your current insurance, you can keep it" believers. Obama said the insurance price would also drop. Still waiting for my savings/refund.

Just before Obama Care was enacted (yes, I remember you "Choker"), there was a lot of name calling and mudslinging going on. Seems the liberals have crawled under a rock. But hey... no complaining... we voted for this guy, and nobody listened to his opponents.. so we got him... and we have to live with him...

Sheriff

User avatar
ButtermilkBuoy
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:13 am

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by ButtermilkBuoy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:04 pm

Sircadian wrote:Who cares how many years, or about any numbers,
Right! Right! Who cares about numbers or facts? I never knew a liberal who let facts and analysis get in the way of his wrongheaded biases.

Choker hit the nail squarely on the head:
The Choker wrote: "Feelings and good intentions are what matter; never mind that the results are ineffective at best and terribly destructive many other times."

_________________
Mask

User avatar
ButtermilkBuoy
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:13 am

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by ButtermilkBuoy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:08 pm

Those lib professors who supported Obamacare are now furious when they see the results that affect them personally. hahaha
WASHINGTON — For years, Harvard’s experts on health economics and policy have advised presidents and Congress on how to provide health benefits to the nation at a reasonable cost. But those remedies will now be applied to the Harvard faculty, and the professors are in an uproar.

Members of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the heart of the 378-year-old university, voted overwhelmingly in November to oppose changes that would require them and thousands of other Harvard employees to pay more for health care. The university says the increases are in part a result of the Obama administration’s Affordable Care Act, which many Harvard professors championed.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

Roberto Villacreses of Sunshine Life and Health Advisors with Darko Tomelic and Andrea Viteri recently at a Miami mall.
Health Insurance Enrollment Strongest in Federal MarketplaceDEC. 30, 2014
Agents from Sunshine Life and Health Advisors helped customers sign up for health care in Miami this month.
So Far, 6.4 Million Obtain Health Care Coverage for 2015 in Federal MarketplaceDEC. 23, 2014
Obama Administration to Investigate Insurers for Bias Against Costly ConditionsDEC. 22, 2014

The faculty vote came too late to stop the cost increases from taking effect this month, and the anger on campus remains focused on questions that are agitating many workplaces: How should the burden of health costs be shared by employers and employees? If employees have to bear more of the cost, will they skimp on medically necessary care, curtail the use of less valuable services, or both?

“Harvard is a microcosm of what’s happening in health care in the country,” said David M. Cutler, a health economist at the university who was an adviser to President Obama’s 2008 campaign. But only up to a point: Professors at Harvard have until now generally avoided the higher expenses that other employers have been passing on to employees. That makes the outrage among the faculty remarkable, Mr. Cutler said, because “Harvard was and remains a very generous employer.”

In Harvard’s health care enrollment guide for 2015, the university said it “must respond to the national trend of rising health care costs, including some driven by health care reform,” in the form of the Affordable Care Act. The guide said that Harvard faced “added costs” because of provisions in the health care law that extend coverage for children up to age 26, offer free preventive services like mammograms and colonoscopies and, starting in 2018, add a tax on high-cost insurance, known as the Cadillac tax.

Richard F. Thomas, a Harvard professor of classics and one of the world’s leading authorities on Virgil, called the changes “deplorable, deeply regressive, a sign of the corporatization of the university.”

Mary D. Lewis, a professor who specializes in the history of modern France and has led opposition to the benefit changes, said they were tantamount to a pay cut. “Moreover,” she said, “this pay cut will be timed to come at precisely the moment when you are sick, stressed or facing the challenges of being a new parent.”

The university is adopting standard features of most employer-sponsored health plans: Employees will now pay deductibles and a share of the costs, known as coinsurance, for hospitalization, surgery and certain advanced diagnostic tests. The plan has an annual deductible of $250 per individual and $750 for a family. For a doctor’s office visit, the charge is $20. For most other services, patients will pay 10 percent of the cost until they reach the out-of-pocket limit of $1,500 for an individual and $4,500 for a family.
Continue reading the main story

Previously, Harvard employees paid a portion of insurance premiums and had low out-of-pocket costs when they received care.

Michael E. Chernew, a health economist and the chairman of the university benefits committee, which recommended the new approach, acknowledged that “with these changes, employees will often pay more for care at the point of service.” In part, he said, “that is intended because patient cost-sharing is proven to reduce overall spending.”

The president of Harvard, Drew Gilpin Faust, acknowledged in a letter to the faculty that the changes in health benefits — though based on recommendations from some of the university’s own health policy experts — were “causing distress” and had “generated anxiety” on campus. But she said the changes were necessary because Harvard’s health benefit costs were growing faster than operating revenues or staff salaries and were threatening the budget for other priorities like teaching, research and student aid.

In response, Harvard professors, including mathematicians and microeconomists, have dissected the university’s data and question whether its health costs have been growing as fast as the university says. Some created spreadsheets and contended that the university’s arguments about the growth of employee health costs were misleading. In recent years, national health spending has been growing at an exceptionally slow rate.

In addition, some ideas that looked good to academia in theory are now causing consternation. In 2009, while Congress was considering the health care legislation, Dr. Alan M. Garber — then a Stanford professor and now the provost of Harvard — led a group of economists who sent an open letter to Mr. Obama endorsing cost-control features of the bill. They praised the Cadillac tax as a way to rein in health costs and premiums.

Dr. Garber, a physician and health economist, has been at the center of the current Harvard debate. He approved the changes in benefits, which were recommended by a committee that included university administrators and experts on health policy.

In an interview, Dr. Garber acknowledged that Harvard employees would face greater cost-sharing, but he defended the changes. “Cost-sharing, if done appropriately, can slow the growth of health spending,” he said. “We need to be prepared for the very real possibility that health expenditure growth will take off again.”

But Jerry R. Green, a professor of economics and a former provost who has been on the Harvard faculty for more than four decades, said the new out-of-pocket costs could lead people to defer medical care or diagnostic tests, causing more serious illnesses and costly complications in the future.

“It’s equivalent to taxing the sick,” Professor Green said. “I don’t think there’s any government in the world that would tax the sick.”

Meredith B. Rosenthal, a professor of health economics and policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, said she was puzzled by the outcry. “The changes in Harvard faculty benefits are parallel to changes that all Americans are seeing,” she said. “Indeed, they have come to our front door much later than to others.”
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story

But in her view, there are drawbacks to the Harvard plan and others like it that require consumers to pay a share of health care costs at the time of service. “Consumer cost-sharing is a blunt instrument,” Professor Rosenthal said. “It will save money, but we have strong evidence that when faced with high out-of-pocket costs, consumers make choices that do not appear to be in their best interests in terms of health.”

Harvard’s new plan is far more generous than plans sold on public insurance exchanges under the Affordable Care Act. Harvard says its plan pays 91 percent of the cost of services for the covered population, while the most popular plans on the exchanges, known as silver plans, pay 70 percent, on average, reflecting their "actuarial value.”

"None of us who protested was motivated by our own bottom line so much as by the principle,” Ms. Lewis said, expressing concern about the impact of the changes on lower-paid employees.

In many states, consumers have complained about health plans that limit their choice of doctors and hospitals. Some Harvard employees have said they will gladly accept a narrower network of health care providers if it lowers their costs. But Harvard’s ability to create such networks is complicated by the fact that some of Boston’s best-known, most expensive hospitals are affiliated with Harvard Medical School. To create a network of high-value providers, Harvard would probably need to exclude some of its own teaching hospitals, or discourage their use.

“Harvard employees want access to everything,” said Dr. Barbara J. McNeil, the head of the health care policy department at Harvard Medical School and a member of the benefits committee. “They don’t want to be restricted in what institutions they can get care from.”

Although out-of-pocket costs over all for a typical Harvard employee are to increase in 2015, administrators said premiums would decline slightly. They noted that the university, which has an endowment valued at more than $36 billion, had an unusual program to provide protection against high out-of-pocket costs for employees earning $95,000 a year or less. Still, professors said the protections did not offset the new financial burdens that would fall on junior faculty and lower-paid staff members.

“It seems that Harvard is trying to save money by shifting costs to sick people,” said Mary C. Waters, a professor of sociology. “I don’t understand why a university with Harvard’s incredible resources would do this. What is the crisis?”

A version of this article appears in print on January 6, 2015, on page A1 of the New York edition with the headline: Harvard Ideas on Health Care Hit Home, Hard. Order Reprints| Today's Paper|Subscribe
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/us/he ... 09721&_r=1

hahaha It affects them personally - they would never dream this from their lib towers - now they feel it in the pocketbook. Now who is "greedy"? hahaha

_________________
Mask

User avatar
Nick Danger
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:13 pm

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Nick Danger » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm

The nice thing about this bulletin board software is that you can set it to ignore people who aren't helpful to others and regularly go off-topic. Still have to put up with the quoted responses to them, but still... Calling people names is rude and the last resort of those who can't make their arguments in a more rational manner.

_________________
Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: APAP mode, minimum pressure = 9. No ramp, EPR = 3, medium. Soft cervical collar. Sleepyhead software.

User avatar
Chevie
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:55 am

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Chevie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:40 pm

Nick Danger wrote:Calling people names is rude
The only name I have seen anyone called in this thread is "liberal".

Oh, right, yes.

User avatar
Goofproof
Posts: 16087
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Central Indiana, USA

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Goofproof » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:45 pm

Sheriff Buford wrote:I know several folks here who lost their insurance... one of those "if you like your current insurance, you can keep it" believers. Obama said the insurance price would also drop. Still waiting for my savings/refund.

Just before Obama Care was enacted (yes, I remember you "Choker"), there was a lot of name calling and mudslinging going on. Seems the liberals have crawled under a rock. But hey... no complaining... we voted for this guy, and nobody listened to his opponents.. so we got him... and we have to live with him...

Sheriff
I think the statement we have a few liberals here, we are full to the rim with liberals and bleeding hearts. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, however misguided the road signs are.

Liberals crawl under rocks that's true, that's where they breed. Jim
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire

User avatar
Wulfman...
Posts: 6688
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:41 pm
Location: Nearest fishing spot

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Wulfman... » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:04 pm

Sircadian wrote:Snip: I'm as guilty as anybody, they could easily tax me an extra $1k per year and not affect my standard of living. Other countries tax those that can afford more. That touches on another issue, it may be that we have a lack of willingness to share the wealth.

There are so many areas of gov't waste that would enable the powers to build a much better plan rather than fight this poor plan. Myself, find it difficult to fault anyone that tried tried to improve a broken system, absurd to me.

Complaints here about the Apnea industry is only one small example of the true problems with the system. Greed has been the modus operandi. On a side note, I have no political affiliations here.

Sirc (winning friends and influencing people, NOT)
When a person comes up to you with a gun and demands your money it's called "robbery". When the government does it, it's called a "tax".......to "share the wealth".
Why should we get the government involved......maybe we should just go up to people and demand their money directly.

And, I'll have you know that WE have some of the greediest politicians that money can buy and who can waste money with the best of 'em!!!!!!
I mean, when they took a working system and make it WORSE, what more could you ask?

I don't know for WHOM this new system is more affordable, I keep hearing that fewer people are seeking medical care because they can't afford it. Doctors are leaving their practices, hospitals are cutting staffs and budgets. Everything they "sold" this system on turned out to be lies. It didn't save the average family $2500, they couldn't keep their insurance or their doctors if they liked them, etc., etc., etc..


Den

.
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05

User avatar
M'ohms
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:44 pm
Location: Georgetown, Indiana

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by M'ohms » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Wulfman... wrote:
Sircadian wrote:Snip: I'm as guilty as anybody, they could easily tax me an extra $1k per year and not affect my standard of living. Other countries tax those that can afford more. That touches on another issue, it may be that we have a lack of willingness to share the wealth.

There are so many areas of gov't waste that would enable the powers to build a much better plan rather than fight this poor plan. Myself, find it difficult to fault anyone that tried tried to improve a broken system, absurd to me.

Complaints here about the Apnea industry is only one small example of the true problems with the system. Greed has been the modus operandi. On a side note, I have no political affiliations here.

Sirc (winning friends and influencing people, NOT)
When a person comes up to you with a gun and demands your money it's called "robbery". When the government does it, it's called a "tax".......to "share the wealth".
Why should we get the government involved......maybe we should just go up to people and demand their money directly.

And, I'll have you know that WE have some of the greediest politicians that money can buy and who can waste money with the best of 'em!!!!!!
I mean, when they took a working system and make it WORSE, what more could you ask?

I don't know for WHOM this new system is more affordable, I keep hearing that fewer people are seeking medical care because they can't afford it. Doctors are leaving their practices, hospitals are cutting staffs and budgets. Everything they "sold" this system on turned out to be lies. It didn't save the average family $2500, they couldn't keep their insurance or their doctors if they liked them, etc., etc., etc..


Den

.
A big +1!

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Supplemental oxygen at 2.5 lpm
AutoSV 960 with heated hose. Settings: EPAP Min-12, EPAP Max-17, PS Min-5.5, PS Max-13, Max Pressure-25, Rate-Auto, Rise Time 1. Use Sleepyhead and Encore Pro.

herefishy
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:24 am

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by herefishy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:31 pm

Note to self - just stay out of it.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Activa™ LT Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: pressure 10-12

User avatar
PST
Posts: 986
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 9:56 pm

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by PST » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:14 pm

Hi Choker,

I am amused to hear conservatives taking at face value reporting from the "60 Minutes" television show, Dan Rather's old home. I haven't watched a television news show in ten years (except during disasters in progress) and I feel the better for it. There is something about the medium that guarantees shallowness, especially when a complicated story is told in a brief segment. In this case, CBS interviews Steve Brill, who just wrote a 500-page book on healthcare policy, and tries to make such a dull subject exciting enough to keep its audience from hitting the channel button for 15 minutes.

Anyone who cares to do so can read the transcript in a fraction of the time it takes to watch the show. Brill makes it clear several times that he has no quarrel with what Obamacare accomplished to expand coverage; he is just upset that it was not radical enough in its efforts to control costs. "Steven Brill says that the outrage is what the Affordable Care Act doesn't do. 'It doesn't do anything on medical malpractice reform. It doesn't do anything to control drug prices. It doesn't do anything to control hospital profits.'" Thus, the title of the segment was "What Obamacare Doesn't Do."

Is there anyone who thinks that the ACA could have passed if it had included price controls on Big Pharma and the hospitals? Brill doesn't think so. I have not read the book yet, but there has been enough reporting on it in the last few days to make it clear what Brill is saying. I am relying on summaries of his argument and quotations from reviews in Forbes, the New York Times Book Review, and Malcolm Gladwell in the New Yorker. In his book, Brill calls the ACA "a milestone toward erasing a national disgrace." He recognizes that it would have been politically impossible to impose huge price cuts on the big pharmaceutical companies and hospital-based healthcare organizations and still get the legislation through Congress. So this isn't a story about how Obamacare is a failure; it's a story about how, in the author's opinion, it still leaves a cost problem to be worked on. Duh!

And that is not a problem we liberals are responsible for. We are not the ones who have been so tender about the profits these industries earn. Every other advanced country uses the purchasing power of its healthcare system to negotiate good deals with Big Pharma. That's why we pay more for drugs than anyone else in the world. Here, it is against the law for Medicare to use its high volume of purchases to get a similar bargain, and it always has been. In the transcript, Brill points out that we could save hundreds of billions of dollars if we could order our drugs from Canada. The ACA didn't fix this, so it remains a problem for another day.

The most remarkable aspect of the book is the solution Brill offers. What he is proposing should make all of us, liberal or conservative, think twice. Brill thinks that the big hospital systems should be allowed to expand into regional monopolies but should take over the function of insurance companies as well. Quoting Gladwell:
At the end of 'America’s Bitter Pill,' Brill offers his own solution to the health-care crisis. He wants the big regional health-care systems that dominate many metropolitan areas to expand their reach and to assume the function of insuring patients as well. He talks to Jeffrey Romoff, the C.E.O. of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, who is about to try this idea in the Pittsburgh area, and becomes convinced that the same model would work throughout the country. 'The [hospital's] insurance company would not only have every incentive to control the doctors' and hospitals' costs, but also the means to do so,' he writes. 'It would be under the same roof, controlled by Romoff. Conversely, the hospitals and doctors would have no incentive to inflate costs or over-treat, because their ultimate boss, Romoff, would be getting the bill when those extra costs hit his insurance company.'
I love that. He thinks you could reduce costs 20 percent by letting the toughest competitors monopolize both the provider role and insurance. Then we control costs by heavily regulating the surviving entities. I'm not kidding. Quoting Forbes:
"My idea for how to fix Obamacare and American healthcare," Brill now argues. "Let these guys loose."

"Give the most ambitious, expansion-minded foxes responsible for the chargemaster even more free rein to run the henhouse—but with lots of conditions."
In other words, he wants the equivalent of a National Health Service, but contracted out to highly paid entrepreneurs. And it is in pursuit of this goal that he is arguing that Obamacare did not go far enough. You can have Brill on your team, Choker; we don't want him.

At the risk of being even more tiresome than usual, I would like to point out that the family that provides the example for the "60 Minutes" story, the Recchis, lacked conventional health insurance that they could use at M.D. Anderson so they had to pay the undiscounted rate hospitals charge the uninsured. Avoiding this is one of the best things about expanding the number of people with insurance coverage. Even if they buy cheap plans with big deductibles, at least they get the advantage of the bargains insurers negotiate with hospitals (what I call the Sam's Club benefit of insurance). I have an example from my own experience. I had an MRI the other day for which the hospital would have charged me $5,507. But the negotiated rate with the insurance company was $1,999. So even if I had a $5,000 deductible and had to pay the whole thing, I would have saved more than $3,500 over the rack rate. Obamacare has increased by millions the number of people with insurance, so cases like the Recchis won't happen so often. That is a story about the cost of lacking insurance and not a story about the failure of Obamacare.

I have welcomed seeing Obamacare off the agenda here at CPAPtalk for the last year or so. I assumed it was because the news about how well the act has been working was so overwhelming. I'm pleased with it, but guess everyone doesn't agree. I for one would be happy to see the topic die again. I have never once started a thread on the subject. But if it is going to be once again a subject of debate around here, then you can be sure that it still has its defenders.

PST

User avatar
chunkyfrog
Posts: 34545
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Nowhere special--this year in particular.

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by chunkyfrog » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:29 pm

That sounds like an HMO. Been there, suffered while the stockholders raked in the big bucks.

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P10 For Her Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Airsense 10 Autoset for Her

User avatar
Elle
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:47 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Elle » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:56 pm

Why are the right wingers so angry in the US? In Canada you can barely tell the difference between a liberal and a red neck but conservatives in the US always seem to be ready to spontaneously combust. The hatred and vitriol is puzzling.

User avatar
Wulfman...
Posts: 6688
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:41 pm
Location: Nearest fishing spot

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Wulfman... » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:22 pm

PST,

I guess you didn't read my first post on the first page.......it had the exact same link to the transcript that you imbedded a link to.

I'm still laughing about the following statements you've made. They're hilarious considering that the ACA was written and passed solely by the Democrats in Congress. The things that were "wrong" with the healthcare industry in the U.S. could have been easily and less expensively fixed without ruining the whole system.
So, why were the things enumerated below NOT fixed? Because the Democrats are firmly in the pockets of the healthcare industry.
Is there anyone who thinks that the ACA could have passed if it had included price controls on Big Pharma and the hospitals?
He recognizes that it would have been politically impossible to impose huge price cuts on the big pharmaceutical companies and hospital-based healthcare organizations and still get the legislation through Congress.
And that is not a problem we liberals are responsible for. We are not the ones who have been so tender about the profits these industries earn.
Obama received $22,471,562 in campaign financing from the healthcare industry according to opensecrets.org.

Agribusiness $2,553,296
Communications/Electronics $29,055,271
Construction $6,297,566
Defense $1,164,086
Energy & Natural Resources $3,169,037
Finance, Insurance & Real Estate $43,744,789
Health $22,471,562
Lawyers & Lobbyists $47,722,009
Transportation $1,931,884
Misc Business $34,036,372
Labor $710,481
Ideological/Single-Issue $18,003,358
Other $87,299,627

I'm sure he (and the rest of the Dems) don't want to bite the hands that feed them.

And Lesley Stahl? Yeah, she's the one who thought giving some of the Gitmo detainees Ensure (the diet supplement) was borderline torture.

Your persistent defense of the administration and the ACA is getting pathetic.
I really think your calling is in comedy writing.

I didn't start this thread, but I figured you'd be around to comment. In fact, I saw you logged in earlier and figured someone had sent you a PM about this thread. You're at least consistent.


Den

.
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05

User avatar
Wulfman...
Posts: 6688
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:41 pm
Location: Nearest fishing spot

Re: Obamacare and Sixty Minutes

Post by Wulfman... » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:29 pm

Elle wrote:Why are the right wingers so angry in the US? In Canada you can barely tell the difference between a liberal and a red neck but conservatives in the US always seem to be ready to spontaneously combust. The hatred and vitriol is puzzling.
I've always been under the opinion that the Liberals were the ones who were "angry". When it comes to having discussions (or arguments) and they feel like they're losing the argument......they're the ones that start the "name calling". Or, they'll try to change the subject to something that doesn't apply.


Den

.
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05