Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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TangledHose
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Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:37 pm

Not sure where to start, but here goes Nuthin'.......

Eleven years ago I did my Sleep Study......it was a combined Sleep Study imediately followed by CPAP Titration in one night. My Titrated CPAP pressure ended up being 12cmh2o. All fine and well.....went home with an old Resperonics Brick set at 12cm and was Fat, Dumb, and Happy for years. Then it was time for a new machine after five years and I got an F&P Icon Auto when they first came out. I was totally fed up with Crapria (Apria) by that point so I struck out on my own with the help of this Forum. I set my Auto Icon up with a reasonable range of 8cm to 14cm, all is well, again I am Fat, Dumb, and Happy. I was looking at AHI numbers just from the screen of the F&P, but decided to install F&P's InfoSmart software so I could keep a closer eye on things......that was all good and I could see that my 90% pressure was indeed around 12cm and never went much higher....AHI numbers were good around 1.3 average overtime. Mostly I was having Hypopneas and very few if any Obstructive Apneas.

Then a couple years ago I aquired and S9 Autoset and began using that machine as primary and the F&P as a travel and backup. At that time Sleepyhead worked fine for the S9, but did not at that stage work for the Icon. Now I learned that different brands of machines have different Auto Algorithms and that's very understandable, so I wasn't shocked that the S9 wanted to go up above the 14cm upper range......I let it go higher and started to see more Centrals and I started to have more arousals due to increased leaks with my FFM. So since my Titration pressure was 12cm I decided to cap the upper range at 13 on the S9 so the machine could not go to higher pressures. Again all was well, the AHI numbers settled down to a nice 1.3 ~ 1.4 average. Occasionally I would even get some great AHI numbers like 0.3, so I was feeling good and thought things were well in hand. Very few Obstructive apneas, again mostly Hypopneas and a few scattered Centrals that I wasn't worried about. Most of my AHI number was made up of Hypopneas, and they were pissing me off simply from a numbers stand point.

So I have been experimenting of late with my new Airsense autoset machine, and same thing probably because the auto pressure algorithm is basically the same as the S9 I suspect.....the machine wants to keep going to higher numbers like 14 ~ 15 cm if I let it. I have the minimum set at 11 so as not to have too wide a pressure range. But when I let the pressure go higher I am seeing a ton more Hypopneas and a few more centrals start to show up and the AHI number after two weeks with higher pressure was getting in the 2.8, 2.9 range. Still acceptable, but not as good as when I limit the high pressure to 13.0 cm.

So I started to get curious about the Titration Criteria.........how do they determine to stop increasing pressure and settle on a number like my 12cm......if 12 is good, why not 13, or 14? So now to the root of my question......I was always under the assumption that Hypopneas should decrease with an increase in therapy pressue, not the other way around. I know that a Hypopnea is similar to an Obstructive apnea just not as much obstruction.......some references place a Hypopnea at a 50% reduction in flow, others place the threshold at a 30% reduction, both with a minimum of ten second duration. So I have always thought that a higher therapy pressure should decrease the Hpopneas just like with an Obstructive Apnea.

I found the following Titration flow charts for sleep technicians from Resperonics, and if you follow the flow chart they increase pressure from 4cm at 1cm intervals until the Obstrutice Apneas go away and if they increase pressure more they are to go back down 1cm if more Centrals and Hypopneas begin to show up. This seems totally counter intuitive to me .......I can understand that increasing pressure may increase Centrals, but I am surprised that they would want to decrease pressure if they had more Hypopnes........maybe I have been totally wrong all these years in my assumption that Hypopneas should decrease with more pressure????

Resperonics Titration Flow Chart:

Image

Also interesting to me is that my Transcend Auto also does not want to increase pressure above about 12.5 if I leave the high end open, so it's a little baffling to me that both the Algorithm on the F&P Auto and the Transcend Algorithm don't want to go higher than the 12cm range, but both my ResMed machines want to keep going up in pressure close to 15cm.......I didn't think there would be that much difference in these different brands of machines and their respective Algorithms. Just something to be aware of with different brand machines if you ever switch.

So anyway what is your take on the Hypopneas increasing with therapy pressure rather than decreasing??????? <scratching my head on this issue>

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Last edited by TangledHose on Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick Danger
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by Nick Danger » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:43 pm

Perhaps central hypopneas? There are two ways to read "central apneas/hypopneas". One was is hypopneas and/or central apneas; the other is central hypopneas and/or central apneas. I suspect they mean the latter.

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OkyDoky
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by OkyDoky » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:50 pm

One thing I noticed is that they have a different path for partial obstruction than central/hypopneas. On the partial obstructions you increase pressure. I wonder what is the difference?
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OkyDoky
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by OkyDoky » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:51 pm

Nick Danger wrote:Perhaps central hypopneas? There are two ways to read "central apneas/hypopneas". One was is hypopneas and/or central apneas; the other is central hypopneas and/or central apneas. I suspect they mean the latter.
That makes sense with the different paths that I see.
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TangledHose
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:52 pm

No, I get the Centrals increasing with increasing pressure...........what I don't get is why they indicated in the flow chart that Hypopneas would also require a reduction in pressure.......and with my experience when I let the machine go to higher pressures I am getting quite a few more Hypopneas just like what the Titration flow chart would indicate.

In essence if I let my ResMed machines climb to higher pressures on the top end like they want to my AHI numbers increase significantly with mostly an increase in Hypopneas......just confuses me. I guess in my case maybe the Auto Algorithm in the ResMed machines just doesn't like my kinda issues

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TangledHose
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:55 pm

Nick Danger wrote:Perhaps central hypopneas? There are two ways to read "central apneas/hypopneas". One was is hypopneas and/or central apneas; the other is central hypopneas and/or central apneas. I suspect they mean the latter.

there is no such thing as a "Central Hypopnea" ....... Obstructive...total closure, Hypopnea....partial closure, Central is no closure, just your central nervous system not sending a breathing signal.....your airway is open during a Central.

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Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
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OkyDoky
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by OkyDoky » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:01 pm

TangledHose wrote:
Nick Danger wrote:Perhaps central hypopneas? There are two ways to read "central apneas/hypopneas". One was is hypopneas and/or central apneas; the other is central hypopneas and/or central apneas. I suspect they mean the latter.

there is no such thing as a "Central Hypopnea" ....... Obstructive...total closure, Hypopnea....partial closure, Central is no closure, just your central nervous system not sending a breathing signal.....your airway is open during a Central.
Correct. But how do you explain the pathway for partial obstruction that increases pressure. I think it's their terminology that's confusing on the diagram.
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Wulfman...
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by Wulfman... » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:04 pm

TangledHose wrote:
Nick Danger wrote:Perhaps central hypopneas? There are two ways to read "central apneas/hypopneas". One was is hypopneas and/or central apneas; the other is central hypopneas and/or central apneas. I suspect they mean the latter.

there is no such thing as a "Central Hypopnea" ....... Obstructive...total closure, Hypopnea....partial closure, Central is no closure, just your central nervous system not sending a breathing signal.....your airway is open during a Central.
Oh yeah? Do a Google search on it. If there isn't, there's sure a lot of links to something that doesn't exist. I think it's been discussed on this forum years ago, too.


Den

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Jay Aitchsee
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by Jay Aitchsee » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:22 pm

Wulfman... wrote:Oh yeah? Do a Google search on it. If there isn't, there's sure a lot of links to something that doesn't exist.
Like this: Are We Ready to Define Central Hypopnea?

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Wulfman...
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by Wulfman... » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Jay Aitchsee wrote:
Wulfman... wrote:Oh yeah? Do a Google search on it. If there isn't, there's sure a lot of links to something that doesn't exist.
Like this: Are We Ready to Define Central Hypopnea?
Yep. Saw that one when I Googled it.


Den

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TangledHose
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:55 pm

Well OK then..........I take my previous statement back, and offer an apology to Nick Danger and OkyDoky .......... I find myself eating crow..........I suppose it was the nomenclature on the flow chart that has thrown me off the track. So I will continue with my previous understanding that Hypopneas should be treated with increased pressure.

I am going back to my pressure experiments with the ResMed and see if I can get the Hypopneas to decrease even though I am still well within the "Treated Category"

Leaving with my tail between my legs and my head slumped ...............

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OkyDoky
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by OkyDoky » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:07 pm

Hey, that's why we are here. I'm sure I will have my turn "in the dog house" and look forward to being corrected as needed.
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TangledHose
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:37 pm

Thanks OkyDoky........hope Nick sees my apology to him as well.......I've never heard of the term "Central Hypopneas" before and it still seems a bit illogical to me, but I'll except it......

I did think the Titration flow chart was kinda cool......the chart in and of itself answers a lot of questions how they go about the Titration process

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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by Sleeprider » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:02 pm

I appreciate you going out on a limb with what may or may not be the cause of hypopneas. I have a LOT of weird anomalies in the wave form data that don't get flagged, that look a lot like a OA, CA or H to me. Anyway, like you I started therapy quite a few years ago, and initially I followed the data on EncorePro, until I didn't see any further progress, and that was that. Several years went by where I didn't participate in the forum or watch my data. In mid 2014 I started looking at upgrading my ancient equipment, and was seeing a lot of hypopnea making up the majority of my AHI. So increasing the low and upper pressure ranges a little, seemed to work well to lower that.

The rest of the story is, when I finally upgraded to current equipment in mid-December and started using Sleepyhead, my AHI numbers dropped in half. But where did all these CA and RERA events come from? CA is now 2/3 of the events.

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TangledHose
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Re: Question about Max Pressure on CPAP Titration

Post by TangledHose » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:19 pm

Wulfman... wrote:
Oh yeah? Do a Google search on it. If there isn't, there's sure a lot of links to something that doesn't exist. I think it's been discussed on this forum years ago, too.

.
Well, did you know the Ancient Pyramids were actually a mistake?


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Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: Simplus Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Also own F&P Icon Auto for backup and travel; and a Transcend when packing space is limited
Link to Sleepyhead:
http://sleepfiles.com/SH2/