proper tongue position

Why the hell is the right position of the tongue considered to be when it touches the mouth's roof with its tip touching the back of the upper front teeth? In my case, it touches my lower front teeth quite naturally. Is it because out of habit due years of stress or a simply specific detail of my anatomy?

Never think about it myself. Really.

Try this test with your tongue in your natural position-plug your nose. Can you breathe if you hold your tongue there but open your lips? If you can, you're not sealing off the nasopharynx, which probably causes a pretty dry mouth and may lead to aerophagia.

With the tongue up on that ridge behind the front teeth, try the test again. If it isn't much difference, then no problem. If it makes a big difference then you can train yourself to keep the tongue up there by practicing all day.

Why? I guess because the tongue position against the roof of the mouth as you described enables one to get a sort of suction contact to help prevent treatment air from pushing forward against the lips. Not sure that my anatomy is like every person, but I cannot get anything near a seal with my tongue in a relaxed natural lower position.

Janknitz wrote:Try this test with your tongue in your natural position-plug your nose. Can you breathe if you hold your tongue there but open your lips? If you can, you're not sealing off the nasopharynx, which probably causes a pretty dry mouth and may lead to aerophagia.

With the tongue up on that ridge behind the front teeth, try the test again. If it isn't much difference, then no problem. If it makes a big difference then you can train yourself to keep the tongue up there by practicing all day.

Yes, I am aware of the test. It can't mouth-breath with my tongue in the "plug" position. The question is how natural such position is in the event of major infection affecting nasal passages. With tongue in its "proper" position, the only option left is die, which is quite natural - can't argue there

When asleep, my tongue drops from its "proper" position, of course.

my tongue apparently has nothing to do with where the air goes, since I can put on my nasal pillows, crank up the pressure, open my mouth, stick out my tongue, and breath through my nose, with no air leaking out my open mouth.

ymmv, batteries not included, no user servicable parts inside, etc.

palerider wrote:my tongue apparently has nothing to do with where the air goes, since I can put on my nasal pillows, crank up the pressure, open my mouth, stick out my tongue, and breath through my nose, with no air leaking out my open mouth.

Yes, yes, can do just the same while not asleep. Not as successful when asleep, unfortunately. However, sealing with my tongue is helpful indeed, which fails during my sleep, too.

Check with the tongue expert...Miley Cyrus

tan wrote:Why the hell is the right position of the tongue considered to be when it touches the mouth's roof with its tip touching the back of the upper front teeth?

It's not. Quit worrying about it.

The idea that adults should have their tongue in a position such that three quarters of the tongue is resting in the roof of the mouth and the tip of the tongue is placed just behind the front teeth is one of the biggest bunches of malarkey that is repeated over and over in this forum. There is no truth whatsoever in this - for adults. It's too late for adults.

Where this idea comes from is that this is the best position, along with mouth closed, to stimulate wide growth of the maxilla and encourage nose breathing during the developing years.

Children should be encouraged to have this tongue posture and breathe with the mouth closed. (But the discipline to do this is not easy in a child.) Children who do this will have a very beneficial effect on the anatomy of their jaws and the upper palate that will serve them well as adults. If so, when they become adults the anatomy and the habits are there and they will do this naturally and not have to think about it.

If you are an adult, it's too late to stimulate jaw growth, so quit worrying about tongue position. If you want to do something about it, see an orthodontist who is knowledgeable and experienced in using appliances to stimulate jaw growth in adults. It's too late for you to do it with your tongue.

I would hope this erroneous advice about tongue position would cease to be dispensed here.

WarmBodies wrote:

tan wrote:Why the hell is the right position of the tongue considered to be when it touches the mouth's roof with its tip touching the back of the upper front teeth?

If you are an adult, it's too late to stimulate jaw growth, so quit worrying about tongue position. If you want to do something about it, see an orthodontist who is knowledgeable and experienced in using appliances to stimulate jaw growth in adults. It's too late for you to do it with your tongue.

I would hope this erroneous advice about tongue position would cease to be dispensed here.

This position is one of the best advice I have gotten! It has nothing to do with the formation of my jaw so no need to see an orthodontist. I am using a pillow mask and before xpap therapy, I was a mouth breather. With my tongue in the upper position, the air from the AutoSv does not escape out of my mouth when the lips part. If my tongue is down against the lower teeth, then the air will blow out my mouth and none would go where it is suppose to. So using the machine would be useless. I practice putting my tongue lightly against the roof of my mouth throughout the day so that I breathe through my nose. By doing so and using a chin strap, I am able to use a pillow mask and don't have to suffer using a FF mask that leaks into my eyes and makes loud farting noises all night. It has made a world of difference to me.

WarmBodies wrote:

tan wrote:Why the hell is the right position of the tongue considered to be when it touches the mouth's roof with its tip touching the back of the upper front teeth?

It's not. Quit worrying about it.

The idea that adults should have their tongue in a position such that three quarters of the tongue is resting in the roof of the mouth and the tip of the tongue is placed just behind the front teeth is one of the biggest bunches of malarkey that is repeated over and over in this forum. There is no truth whatsoever in this - for adults. It's too late for adults.

Where this idea comes from is that this is the best position, along with mouth closed, to stimulate wide growth of the maxilla and encourage nose breathing during the developing years.

Children should be encouraged to have this tongue posture and breathe with the mouth closed. (But the discipline to do this is not easy in a child.) Children who do this will have a very beneficial effect on the anatomy of their jaws and the upper palate that will serve them well as adults. If so, when they become adults the anatomy and the habits are there and they will do this naturally and not have to think about it.

If you are an adult, it's too late to stimulate jaw growth, so quit worrying about tongue position. If you want to do something about it, see an orthodontist who is knowledgeable and experienced in using appliances to stimulate jaw growth in adults. It's too late for you to do it with your tongue.

I would hope this erroneous advice about tongue position would cease to be dispensed here.

Thanks for the info. I understand that it is too late for an adult. But Ogeo also has a point. Having mouth sealed with the tongue would be great but is the biggest challenge for me at the moment. Nasal mask seems to be substantially better than FFM, but neither chin-strap nor mouth-taping work well. This is why I have been researching this topic a lot last few days

It took me several months (1-2 yrs?) to with any consistency keep my mouth closed and tongue on the roof of my mouth with the seal maintained. I taped my mouth shut, used denture adhesive between my lips, and wore a chin strap early on. Haven't needed any of those for several years. I do still have to be aware of my head position on the pillow. Back sleeping causes me to go slack jaw. Any tilt and gravity will pull my jaw down and undo my best efforts. If on my side and head is flat, I do pretty good. I would imagine those with higher pressures would be more prone to problems keeping the air from escaping. Never considered my tongue placement to have anything to do with jaw development. Ir's all about the seal and my desire to not have to wear a chin strap, etc. Now, if one's mouth structures are such that they can have successful treatment regardless of tongue position, I'm envious. Wasn't the case for me. BTW I can control the air in the back of my airway when I'm awake, can even talk and take a sip of water. When I fall asleep all bets are off. It will come out my mouth if there is no seal inside. Had I not overcome it, my next step was to try a full face mask. For some the hassle makes it easier to go full face.

WarmBodies wrote: The idea that adults should have their tongue in a position such that three quarters of the tongue is resting in the roof of the mouth and the tip of the tongue is placed just behind the front teeth is one of the biggest bunches of malarkey that is repeated over and over in this forum. There is no truth whatsoever in this - for adults. It's too late for adults.

Where this idea comes from is that this is the best position, along with mouth closed, to stimulate wide growth of the maxilla and encourage nose breathing during the developing years.

Children should be encouraged to have this tongue posture and breathe with the mouth closed. (But the discipline to do this is not easy in a child.) Children who do this will have a very beneficial effect on the anatomy of their jaws and the upper palate that will serve them well as adults. If so, when they become adults the anatomy and the habits are there and they will do this naturally and not have to think about it.

If you are an adult, it's too late to stimulate jaw growth, so quit worrying about tongue position. If you want to do something about it, see an orthodontist who is knowledgeable and experienced in using appliances to stimulate jaw growth in adults. It's too late for you to do it with your tongue.

I would hope this erroneous advice about tongue position would cease to be dispensed here.

No one said anything about jaw growth -- the tongue position we talk about "over and over in this forum" helps to create a kind of seal that keeps therapy air from filling up the mouth and causing mouth leaking and 'chipmunk cheeks' -- that's all. This is not malarkey or erroneous advice. We discuss it a lot on the forum because for many people it works.

WarmBodies wrote:The idea that adults should have their tongue in a position such that three quarters of the tongue is resting in the roof of the mouth and the tip of the tongue is placed just behind the front teeth is one of the biggest bunches of malarkey that is repeated over and over in this forum. There is no truth whatsoever in this - for adults. It's too late for adults.

I offer a big thank you for writing this. I too had read this information here and struggled to achieve the "Official CPAPTALK Tongue Position". It was very frustrating for me for a long time. Then one day I caught my ENT, who is very familiar with sleep apnea and his partners have a sleep lab in the same building, in a talkative mood and we discussed this. He told me pretty much what you are saying. There is not enough room in my mouth to achieve that tongue position. He said most of his CPAP patients have mouths that are too small for propering positioning of the tongue - that is why they have sleep apnea!

So I finally quit worrying about it and found the best position for my tongue is with the tip touching the tip of my front too upper molars. I sleep very comfortably with it there. When I was trying to put it on the roof of my mouth, my tongue folded up because there was not enough room.

I sleep well like this and have a low leak rate. Occasionally I will wake up near sunrise with a little dry mouth but the reports still show low leak and low AHI and I still feel well without daytime sleepiness.

Again, thank you for writing this. It may put a lot of people reading this at ease. I understand what you are saying about orthodontics. Too bad I did not know this 30 years ago. It's a little late now for me, so I will stick with CPAP.

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