need help with Sleepyhead data

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wearysoul
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need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by wearysoul » Thu May 15, 2014 4:03 am

Would some of the numbers gurus (Pugsy, robysue, and any others) look at my Sleepyhead report and tell me your thoughts/opinions? I'm posting a typical recent night. Will post others if you like. I expect you've posted info in other threads that would answer my questions but I just don't have the brain power or concentration at this point to read through them and mine the gold.

Here's a little background. I'm not a newbie. I joined the forum back in 2009, after I was diagnosed, and was moderately active for a while. I dropped out in frustration. However, I continued using my ASV, then tried an oral appliance, then used CPAP again, then Winx, then CPAP again, and most recently APAP (since October 2013). A very long story.

In addition to OSA, I have what appears to be sleep maintenance insomnia. I have early morning awakenings--occurring now between 4:30 and 5:30 am. I'm aware of earlier arousals that don't lead to a full awakening. I'm currently doing CBT for insomnia. It's very hard. Not far enough into it yet to tell if it's going to help.

I can tell from my Sleepyhead downloads that an event (or two) usually occurs before my early morning awakening. Before I started CBT-I, I would get up after the early morning awakening, go downstairs, and wait until I felt sleepy and calm enough to go back to sleep. Often took more than an hour. Even then I still might not get any more decent sleep.

Although the docs think my numbers are great (AHI usually below 1.8 and frequently below 1.0), I still suffer from severe daytime fatigue, irritability, low mood, brain fog, trouble concentrating. In general, doing any and everything is way harder than it should be. The numbers may look good, but something's not right. It seems to me that having 3 to 5 centrals a night would be enough to really bang up your brain. So I wonder if my ongoing symptoms are due to the centrals and possibly too many flow limitations. I look at my flow limitations on Sleepyhead but can't tell if they are significant enough to be causing a problem. They are pretty constant but low level.

I'm really interested in hearing your opinions about what could be causing my ongoing problems.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by robysue » Thu May 15, 2014 8:11 am

wearysoul,

First a pair of question:

1) How long have you been doing the CBT-I?

2) What kinds of things are you doing in the CBT-I that are supposed to address the early morning wakes?

You say you've been PAPing this time around since Oct 2013. So yeah, you'd hope for some improvement in how you feel by now. But it doesn't always work that way. But you know that already.

So let's start with the good news: The PAP numbers do indeed look good. The AHI is low, the leaks are great, the FL is decent enough. Those three isolated centrals don't seem to be enough to really worry about, and neither do the small number of obstructive events. You didn't show the snoring graph, but lets assume that it's also not interesting. In other words, the PAP is doing its job of keeping your airway open when you are asleep and it is NOT triggering gobs and gobs of pressure induced centrals. Which leads to the conclusion that your on-going bad sleep is caused by something else other than untreated OSA.

To put it another way: Your original bad sleep problem has more roots than just OSA. You've fixed the OSA problem, but the sleep remains bad because the other causes of bad sleep remain unaddressed.

To paraphrase Muffy/NotMuffy/Sludge: PAP doesn't fix bad sleep; PAP just fixes OSA.

Now you've already identified at least one part of your continuing bad sleep problems:
In addition to OSA, I have what appears to be sleep maintenance insomnia. I have early morning awakenings--occurring now between 4:30 and 5:30 am. I'm aware of earlier arousals that don't lead to a full awakening.
And you ARE starting to address the issue using CBT-I:
I'm currently doing CBT for insomnia. It's very hard. Not far enough into it yet to tell if it's going to help.
So my first thought is that you simply need to give the CBT-I some time. Yes, it's hard. And it takes time. Sometimes you start to see a some positive results after a few weeks of CBT-I; sometimes it takes a couple of months.

But my guess is that those early morning wakes AND your awareness of even more arousals during the night are far more likely to be causing the ongoing problems with daytime fatigue and brain fog than the handful of residual sleep apnea events that your machine is recording.

Which brings me to the following:

The total "sleep window" for this night seems to be about 7 hours (0:00 to 7:00). But you had that early morning wake at 4:30 and there's an almost hour long gap in the PAP data, where I presume you got out of bed and went into another room to do something until you started to get sleepy again. So the "total sleep time" is no more than 6 hours. And given your "awareness" of other arousals, my guess is that the total sleep time may be quite a bit less than 6 hours. So at best your sleep efficiency is 6/7 = .86, which doesn't sound awful, but it's not particularly good either. So some of your ongoing problems may just be due to a sleep efficiency that is lower than your body wants combined with not enough sleep.

To give you some insight into what I mean by a sleep efficiency that is lower than your body wants. In my own case, I seem to function best when I get around 6 to 6.5 hours of sleep with a sleep efficiency of around .90 (or better). In other words, I feel and function better if I get 6 hours of sleep in a "sleep window" of 6.5 hours (sleep efficiency = 6/6.5 = .92) than when I get 6.5 hours of sleep in an 8 hour "sleep window" (sleep efficiency = 6.5/8 = .81). In other words, the extra half an hour of sleep is of no use to me if it takes me 90 minutes of additional "time in bed" to get it. Or to put it more bluntly: Being awake for long periods of time when you want to be asleep is exhausting.

You also write:
I can tell from my Sleepyhead downloads that an event (or two) usually occurs before my early morning awakening.
It's possible that you are sensitive enough to the arousal following the stray event (or two) and that wakes you fully up---if it's at the "right time" in the wee hours of the morning. It's also possible that you're stirring around in your sleep and are restless for a while before the wake and the event (or two) is misscored wake breathing (what sludge call sleep/wake/junk breathing).

But given how few events you have, it's more important to work on training yourself how to get back to sleep quickly after that early morning wake than it is to work on trying to figure out how to prevent the last few events from happening---particularly since they may be sleep/wave/junk instead of real events.

Which brings us to:
Before I started CBT-I, I would get up after the early morning awakening, go downstairs, and wait until I felt sleepy and calm enough to go back to sleep. Often took more than an hour. Even then I still might not get any more decent sleep.
And what are you doing when you wake up and have trouble getting back to sleep?

And what specific parts of your CBT-I are designed to teach you how to more quickly get back to sleep after an early morning wake?

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Pugsy » Thu May 15, 2014 8:53 am

All I can add which isn't much is the usual...you look good on paper for the most part. Hours of sleep maybe could be improved upon like Robysue has said so no need for me to go there and repeat what she said. The insomnia stuff I leave to her because she is so much better at it than me.

I will share that from my own personal experience...fragmented sleep for any reason messes with how I feel the next day big time and if I don't get close to 7 1/2 to 8 hours of sleep of minimally fragmented sleep I don't feel so great no matter how good my reports look. I have some bad arthritis issues that sometimes causes significant pain which fragments my sleep more than other times. When I have a "bad" arthritis night...I normally feel like crap the next day no matter how pretty the reports are.

The only question I might ask is the usual "do you take any meds of any kind, even OTC"...and if so...what, dose and when.
Sometimes meds impact sleep architecture more than we think and also impact how we feel the next day.
So I always try to rule out meds as a complicating factor when I can.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by robysue » Thu May 15, 2014 9:04 am

As pugsy says, other things can also fragment sleep. And she asks a lot of pertinent questions.

Another thought about that 4:30-5:30 AM wake that you say you always/often have: If you are going to sleep between midnight and 1:00am, then the 4:30ish to 5:30ish wake could be nothing more than a normal post-REM wake that your insomniac brain is over responding to. Sleep cycles typically last roughly 90 minutes, and 4:30 AM is 270 = 3*90 minutes after midnight.

Hopefully some of your CBT-I is aimed at helping you teach your body how NOT to become fully awake and alert when you wake up at night.

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wearysoul
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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by wearysoul » Thu May 15, 2014 8:56 pm

I just spent over an hour writing a reply to your messages but I lost it while trying to complete the "captcha" phrase when I was previewing at the end. Does anybody else ever have this happen? There must be a better way for the system to verify I'm human!

I'll have to do it over again tomorrow. I have no energy left for it tonight. In the meantime, know that I really appreciate the time and effort you spent, robysue and Pugsy, to reply to my post today.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Pugsy » Thu May 15, 2014 9:03 pm

If it's any consolation I have written short novels here to have them go "poof" and I don't even have the captcha thing to blame.
Highly annoying to spend 30 minutes composing my little novel and one click on the keyboard and "poof"...then I usually say some colorful words. If I have something really important..I save it to notepad just in case something happens during the post submission process because sometimes I get time out errors.

BTW the captcha annoyance will eventually go away...I think 50 posts and/or PMs...or something in that neighborhood and you won't have to deal with it anymore.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by robysue » Thu May 15, 2014 9:49 pm

Pugsy wrote:I
BTW the captcha annoyance will eventually go away...I think 50 posts and/or PMs...or something in that neighborhood and you won't have to deal with it anymore.
I wish.

I still get them now and then. It's always on a really long post with lots of quotes.

I've learned to "copy and paste" my posts to the clipboard if I'm worried about them.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Pugsy » Thu May 15, 2014 9:54 pm

robysue wrote:I still get them now and then. It's always on a really long post with lots of quotes.
I also get the every now and then but didn't want to mention it just in case I jinxed myself. When that happens to us now...that's a bug in the forum software. We shouldn't get them but the forum software is acting up when that happens.

Either that or the forum software is trying to prevent us from publishing those novels.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by wearysoul » Fri May 16, 2014 8:49 pm

Pugsy wrote:If it's any consolation I have written short novels here to have them go "poof" and I don't even have the captcha thing to blame.
Highly annoying to spend 30 minutes composing my little novel and one click on the keyboard and "poof"...then I usually say some colorful words. If I have something really important..I save it to notepad just in case something happens during the post submission process because sometimes I get time out errors.
robysue wrote:I still get them now and then. It's always on a really long post with lots of quotes.
Sorry you both have had that experience too, but I guess I'm glad I'm not the first it's ever happened to. I was just, well . . . beyond words after it happened. Just felt like a cruel hoax to someone who's sleep deprived. But I'm moving on. I'm going to copy and paste onto my clipboard as I proceed so I'll have a backup. So here goes.
robysue wrote:1) How long have you been doing the CBT-I?

2) What kinds of things are you doing in the CBT-I that are supposed to address the early morning wakes?
I started the CBT-I on May 6 after keeping a sleep log for several weeks. So I'm into my second week of following a sleep restriction schedule. My practitioner told me the first week would be hard and the second maybe a little easier. The first week WAS hard, but the second week has been even harder. I struggle fiercely in the late afternoon and find myself fighting sleep terribly, especially if I sit down. I feel as though my brain is determined to shut down no matter what I do. Today I actually fell asleep sitting up straight on the couch--head practically in my lap--and I finally decided that there was no point in torturing myself, especially since I had 6 ½ more hours to go before bedtime. So I took a 45 minute nap. It was enough to get me going again. Otherwise I would not be writing this right now.

After my practitioner reviewed my sleep log on May 6, she concluded that I get an average of 6.5 hours of sleep every 24 hours. Since I had been getting up after my early morning awakenings and staying up for an hour or more, she wanted to reduce that "awake" time to ½ hour. So she gave me a sleep window of 7 hours. It's 12 midnight to 7 am. At this point, I seem to be waking a little more toward 5:30 am and if I stay up for 30 minutes, it's getting close to 6 am and I realize I'm not going to get back to sleep--even if I go back to bed. So on some mornings I haven't gone back. And the result is that I get only about 5 ½ hours sleep. That's less than the average of 6 ½ hours of fragmented sleep I used to get. I guess that's why I feel so much more overwhelmed by sleepiness than before I started the CBT-I.

My practitioner hasn't really given me any further direction on how to reduce the early morning awakenings. I go back to see her on May 20.
robysue wrote:So let's start with the good news: The PAP numbers do indeed look good. The AHI is low, the leaks are great, the FL is decent enough. Those three isolated centrals don't seem to be enough to really worry about, and neither do the small number of obstructive events. You didn't show the snoring graph, but lets assume that it's also not interesting. In other words, the PAP is doing its job of keeping your airway open when you are asleep and it is NOT triggering gobs and gobs of pressure induced centrals. Which leads to the conclusion that your on-going bad sleep is caused by something else other than untreated OSA.

To put it another way: Your original bad sleep problem has more roots than just OSA. You've fixed the OSA problem, but the sleep remains bad because the other causes of bad sleep remain unaddressed.
It's actually a relief to hear you say this. I have been convinced that my APAP therapy wasn't adequate--that I needed something more. I thought the remaining events (like those on the chart) were the culprit. The last two sleep docs I've seen have tried to tell me this but I didn't believe them. In fact, the last doc I saw told me that my main problem was now insomnia. I just wasn't convinced. I thought they were just looking at the total AHI and not looking at the details. Since yesterday I have tried to figure out why I didn't believe them. I think it's because I've become cynical about doctors. They have failed me so many times that they no longer seem credible. It took way too long to get to this point in my treatment. However, I believe you and Pugsy and other people on this forum because you have slept, breathed, and lived through the nightmare that SDB can create and have found workable solutions. In my eyes, you are credible. In short, I now believe my doctor because I believe you.
robysue wrote:The total "sleep window" for this night seems to be about 7 hours (0:00 to 7:00). But you had that early morning wake at 4:30 and there's an almost hour long gap in the PAP data, where I presume you got out of bed and went into another room to do something until you started to get sleepy again. So the "total sleep time" is no more than 6 hours. And given your "awareness" of other arousals, my guess is that the total sleep time may be quite a bit less than 6 hours. So at best your sleep efficiency is 6/7 = .86, which doesn't sound awful, but it's not particularly good either. So some of your ongoing problems may just be due to a sleep efficiency that is lower than your body wants combined with not enough sleep.
Yes, as mentioned above, you're right about the 7 hour sleep window. And the gap is the time I got up and went downstairs and sat on the couch and looked at my iPad. I think your guess about the total sleep time is correct--likely quite a bit less than 6 hours. So the idea that both poor sleep efficiency and sleep deficiency are contributing to my situation makes sense. Also, you gave a great explanation of sleep efficiency--it helps me understand.
robysue wrote:It's possible that you are sensitive enough to the arousal following the stray event (or two) and that wakes you fully up---if it's at the "right time" in the wee hours of the morning. It's also possible that you're stirring around in your sleep and are restless for a while before the wake and the event (or two) is misscored wake breathing (what sludge call sleep/wake/junk breathing).

But given how few events you have, it's more important to work on training yourself how to get back to sleep quickly after that early morning wake than it is to work on trying to figure out how to prevent the last few events from happening---particularly since they may be sleep/wave/junk instead of real events.
Yes, I am stirring around and restless during the period of arousals. It happened this morning. I'm partially awake and fade in and out for a while. Just in between. And then the real awakening occurs. You may be right about the possibility of sleep/wake/junk breathing during that period.
robysue wrote:And what are you doing when you wake up and have trouble getting back to sleep?

And what specific parts of your CBT-I are designed to teach you how to more quickly get back to sleep after an early morning wake?
As I mentioned above, when I wake up and know I'm not going back to sleep easily, I get up and go downstairs and sit on the couch. Listen to my iPod or look at my iPad. Or just sit--but I don't do that too much because I need something to distract me from how I awful I feel.

So far, I haven't learned any other strategies to help me get back to sleep more quickly after an early morning wake. I have only the shorter window allowed by my practitioner for the wake time. Maybe she will give me something new at the next appointment.
Pugsy wrote:I will share that from my own personal experience...fragmented sleep for any reason messes with how I feel the next day big time and if I don't get close to 7 1/2 to 8 hours of sleep of minimally fragmented sleep I don't feel so great no matter how good my reports look. I have some bad arthritis issues that sometimes causes significant pain which fragments my sleep more than other times. When I have a "bad" arthritis night...I normally feel like crap the next day no matter how pretty the reports are.
It makes sense, Pugsy. More evidence of how fragmented sleep affects us. I just wasn't convinced before. But I am now.
Pugsy wrote:The only question I might ask is the usual "do you take any meds of any kind, even OTC"...and if so...what, dose and when.
Sometimes meds impact sleep architecture more than we think and also impact how we feel the next day.
So I always try to rule out meds as a complicating factor when I can.
The only medication I take is .25 mg alprazolam/xanax before bed. My current sleep doc had me try several other meds before the alprazolam, but I couldn't tolerate them. I'm not sure it does much at this point, but my CBT-I practitioner said the way I'm using it is OK--take the same amount at the same time every night. So I'm continuing it until I'm able to begin working on tapering off.

I do take a lot of vitamin/mineral supplements. I take some combination of the following with meals: vitamins C, D, E, B complex, B12, L-methyl folate, multi-mineral, magnesium glycinate, fish oil, evening primrose oil.
robysue wrote:Another thought about that 4:30-5:30 AM wake that you say you always/often have: If you are going to sleep between midnight and 1:00am, then the 4:30ish to 5:30ish wake could be nothing more than a normal post-REM wake that your insomniac brain is over responding to. Sleep cycles typically last roughly 90 minutes, and 4:30 AM is 270 = 3*90 minutes after midnight.
A "post-REM wake" sounds like a possibility . . . I'm frequently aware that I was dreaming before I wake up. Not sure I remember having that awareness since I started the CBT-I though.
robysue wrote:Hopefully some of your CBT-I is aimed at helping you teach your body how NOT to become fully awake and alert when you wake up at night.
Yes, I hope I can learn some more strategies for dealing with this.

Also, I want to tell you that I recently learned about a type of neurofeedback called NeurOptimal (or zengar) neurofeedback. It's supposed to help with sleep issues and many other things. They have a web site. You can Google it. So I have made an appointment and will go tomorrow for my first session. I'm hoping that it will somehow help me get through the CBT-I more easily.

On a final note, thank you both again for taking so much time to reply to my post. I truly thank you because I think I can now go forward with some confidence that what I'm doing is going to help.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Pugsy » Fri May 16, 2014 9:14 pm

Check out the side effects of Xanax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alprazolam
especially these
Anterograde amnesia[45] and concentration problems
Drowsiness, dizziness, lightheadedness, fatigue, unsteadiness and impaired coordination, vertigo[4
I don't know the half life...I don't know if it is entirely to blame for your daytime sleepiness, etc but it is a potential culprit.
Something to talk to your doctor about.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by robysue » Fri May 16, 2014 10:54 pm

wearysoul wrote: I started the CBT-I on May 6 after keeping a sleep log for several weeks.
Are you still keeping the sleep log? And if so, what goes in to it?
So I'm into my second week of following a sleep restriction schedule. My practitioner told me the first week would be hard and the second maybe a little easier. The first week WAS hard, but the second week has been even harder.
Yep. Been there done that. But---and it's an important but---it will get easier with time if you stick with the sleep restricted schedule. Also to make you feel a bit better, when I started my CBT-I, my sleep was so out of whack and so fragmented that I started out with a six hour time in bed window. Bedtime was 1:30 and wake up was 7:30. So you can be happy that the sleep restricted schedule isn't even more restrictive.
I struggle fiercely in the late afternoon and find myself fighting sleep terribly, especially if I sit down.
Been there done that too.
I feel as though my brain is determined to shut down no matter what I do. Today I actually fell asleep sitting up straight on the couch--head practically in my lap--and I finally decided that there was no point in torturing myself, especially since I had 6 ½ more hours to go before bedtime. So I took a 45 minute nap.
Was the nap WITH the PAP? It's critically important that if you're going to cheat that you at least cheat with the PAP. But it's better if you can NOT get into the habit of cheating. The problem with that 45 minute nap is that it's going to make you a lot more prone to waking up and not getting back to sleep again tonight.
After my practitioner reviewed my sleep log on May 6, she concluded that I get an average of 6.5 hours of sleep every 24 hours. Since I had been getting up after my early morning awakenings and staying up for an hour or more, she wanted to reduce that "awake" time to ½ hour. So she gave me a sleep window of 7 hours. It's 12 midnight to 7 am.
All a reasonable plan. And by setting the goal at 6.5 hours of sleep in a 7 hour sleep window, your practitioner is aiming to get your sleep efficiency up to around 93%. But you do need to be reasonable in your expectations: It's likely going to take a few months of work to get to this goal.
At this point, I seem to be waking a little more toward 5:30 am
That's progress. Would you say that the sleep between midnight and the 5:30 wake is relatively continuous or not?
and if I stay up for 30 minutes, it's getting close to 6 am and I realize I'm not going to get back to sleep--even if I go back to bed. So on some mornings I haven't gone back. And the result is that I get only about 5 ½ hours sleep. That's less than the average of 6 ½ hours of fragmented sleep I used to get. I guess that's why I feel so much more overwhelmed by sleepiness than before I started the CBT-I.
The 5 1/2 hours of sleep is part of it. But part of it is also that the CBT-I is hard work. It's hard trying to stay awake when you know you are short on sleep. It's also hard to force yourself out of bed at wake up time when you feel like you've finally just settled down into some sleep. (That was my big problem because my insomnia was manifesting itself as severe bedtime insomnia combined with multiple (short) wakes all night long.)
My practitioner hasn't really given me any further direction on how to reduce the early morning awakenings. I go back to see her on May 20.
She probably won't give you many more specific instructions on what to do to reduce the early morning wakes. But has she explained how the sleep restricted schedule is supposed to help?

In case she hasn't, this is what my PA told me back in Dec. 2010 at the start of the First War on Insomnia: By restricting the time in bed the idea is to consolidate your sleep cycles and make your body and mind decide and learn how to NOT waste time in bed (or time in the sleep window) waking up and NOT going back to sleep. But to make this work you really do have to try very hard to NOT consciously fall asleep during the non-sleep time. The idea is to train the body and mind to understand that time in bed = time to be asleep. In the short run you eventually get tired and sleepy enough to not care so much when you wind up waking up and instead of waking up enough to worry about the wake, at that point your body starts to overrule the mind and you start learning how to fall back asleep more quickly. You might never eliminate all the night time wakes, but the goal is to make them both few enough and short enough where you'll get a full sleep cycle (or two) in between the wakes AND you don't remember the wakes AND the wakes not really disturbing your overall sleep because they are both few in number and short in length.
Yes, as mentioned above, you're right about the 7 hour sleep window. And the gap is the time I got up and went downstairs and sat on the couch and looked at my iPad.
A tip: It would be a good idea to try to NOT use the iPAP or your smart phone or a computer or the TV during your sleep window of 12:00 to 7:00am. The screens emit blue light which messes with the melatonin cycle. In other words, getting on the iPAP may make you more AWAKE and less likely to start feeling sleepy when you are out of bed.
Yes, I am stirring around and restless during the period of arousals. It happened this morning. I'm partially awake and fade in and out for a while. Just in between. And then the real awakening occurs.
Is there morning light coming in your bedroom windows around the time of the wake?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is also a sleep phase problem. Out of pure curiosity: Do you think you could function long term with a seven hour sleep window that runs from 10:30 pm to 5:30 AM? In other words, would you be able to go to sleep by 10:30 on most nights without any additional medication if you were getting up at 5:30 every single day, including your days off?
As I mentioned above, when I wake up and know I'm not going back to sleep easily
When you first become aware of the fact that you are AWAKE what do you do? I mean when you are still in bed---what's the first thing you think about or the first thing you do?

Do you immediately look at the clock? Do you start worrying about the fact that you are awake again? Do you start trying to figure out why you are awake?

If those are the kinds of things that start going through your mind when you first become aware of the fact that you are awake, then you are likely making the wake last longer and you are making it harder to get back to sleep.

Here's something to keep in mind: Even people with perfectly normal sleep patterns (no OSA and no insomnia) typically wake up a few times each night---most often right at the end of a REM cycle. The thing is non-insomniacs respond very differently to the wake than insomniacs do: When non-insomniacs wake up, they typically determine that there's nothing external that needs their attention like a crying baby or some other night time emergency. And after quickly determining that there's no reason they need to be awake, they turn over, snuggle back into the covers, and go right back asleep. In the morning, they probably won't even remember the wake because the wake lasted less than 5 minutes. (In order to remember a wake in the morning, it typically needs to be at least 5 minutes long.)

Contrast that to what many insomniacs do when they find themselves awake: The first thing they do is think Crap, I'm awake again.. And they typically look at the clock immediately after waking up. And after looking at the clock they start focusing on worrying about the time: How long have I slept since the last wake? How long is it before the alarm goes off? And they start worrying about why they woke up in the first place and whether they're going to get back to sleep or not. And all of that worrying tends to make the wake last longer AND makes it much harder to get back to sleep.
I get up and go downstairs and sit on the couch. Listen to my iPod or look at my iPad. Or just sit--but I don't do that too much because I need something to distract me from how I awful I feel.
You are right: You need to not focus on how miserable you feel. At the same time, if you are not ready to just get up (and shift the whole sleep schedule forward by about 90 minutes), you need to do something that is sleep inducing. Listening to quiet music on your iPod is a good activity. Reading a real book or a magazine or newspaper or playing a game of solitaire with real cards would be better than looking at the iPad since the iPad emits blue light.
So far, I haven't learned any other strategies to help me get back to sleep more quickly after an early morning wake. I have only the shorter window allowed by my practitioner for the wake time. Maybe she will give me something new at the next appointment.
Some additional things that might help:
  • Turn the clock around so you can't see it when you first wake up. And try not to obsess about finding out the time when you do wake up at night.
  • When you first become aware of the fact that you are awake, pay attention to your physical comfort rather than wondering or worrying about your (lack) of sleep. Does the pillow need fluffed or squashed. Covers need thrown off or pulled up? If there's nothing in particular that seems wrong, assume that there really is nothing wrong and give yourself permission to just turn over and (try to) go back to sleep. If you can't get back to sleep after a bit, you can always get up ..
  • Try to not micro analyze the wakes, particularly during the night. Most likely there really is no particular reason why you are waking up, other than you're in the habit of waking up (and then worrying about the fact that you are awake).

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Todzo
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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Todzo » Sat May 17, 2014 2:27 pm

wearysoul wrote:I just spent over an hour writing a reply to your messages but I lost it while trying to complete the "captcha" phrase when I was previewing at the end. Does anybody else ever have this happen? There must be a better way for the system to verify I'm human!
So I just hit “quote” in the forum, clicked in the edit area, did a “CTL-a” (that is hold down the “control” key and tap the “a” key) which tells the program to “select all”. Then I did a “CTL-c” which copies all selected to the clipboard. Then I opened my word processor (LibreOffice Writer for that matter but they all work the same in the ways I mention) and did a “CTL-v” which pastes the clipboard into the word processor. Before I started this section I added two back arrows before I did a couple of returns to start the separate paragraph. I also added a couple of forward arrows at the beginning of your next section of text.
wearysoul wrote:I'll have to do it over again tomorrow. I have no energy left for it tonight. In the meantime, know that I really appreciate the time and effort you spent, robysue and Pugsy, to reply to my post today.
So imagine that you had a long post and needed to add all those nasty “begin quote with name” and “end quote” bits of HTML so the quotes will read properly in forum. With the forward and back double arrows you have all you need. So drag across the “begin quote with name” section of HTML including the begin and end brackets and do a copy. Then go to the pull down menus and select “edit”-”find & replace” and in the dialog box in “search for” place your double forward arrows and then in “replace with” paste the “begin quote with name” bit of HTML you copied and then hit “replace all”. Same thing for the close quotes.

So now this entire response to your post is ready to go. “CTL-a” followed by “CTL-c” to copy and then return to the web browser which will likely have the area still selected from the first copy so a “CTL-v” will paste or if that was lost simply click in the edit window, do a “CTL-a” (select all) and then a “CTL-v” to paste. Then submit to post.

You never loose your work this way and always have a copy for future posts if needed.
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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by wearysoul » Sat May 17, 2014 9:57 pm

Todzo wrote:
wearysoul wrote:I just spent over an hour writing a reply to your messages but I lost it while trying to complete the "captcha" phrase when I was previewing at the end. Does anybody else ever have this happen? There must be a better way for the system to verify I'm human!
So I just hit “quote” in the forum, clicked in the edit area, did a “CTL-a” (that is hold down the “control” key and tap the “a” key) which tells the program to “select all”. Then I did a “CTL-c” which copies all selected to the clipboard. Then I opened my word processor (LibreOffice Writer for that matter but they all work the same in the ways I mention) and did a “CTL-v” which pastes the clipboard into the word processor. Before I started this section I added two back arrows before I did a couple of returns to start the separate paragraph. I also added a couple of forward arrows at the beginning of your next section of text.
wearysoul wrote:I'll have to do it over again tomorrow. I have no energy left for it tonight. In the meantime, know that I really appreciate the time and effort you spent, robysue and Pugsy, to reply to my post today.
So imagine that you had a long post and needed to add all those nasty “begin quote with name” and “end quote” bits of HTML so the quotes will read properly in forum. With the forward and back double arrows you have all you need. So drag across the “begin quote with name” section of HTML including the begin and end brackets and do a copy. Then go to the pull down menus and select “edit”-”find & replace” and in the dialog box in “search for” place your double forward arrows and then in “replace with” paste the “begin quote with name” bit of HTML you copied and then hit “replace all”. Same thing for the close quotes.

So now this entire response to your post is ready to go. “CTL-a” followed by “CTL-c” to copy and then return to the web browser which will likely have the area still selected from the first copy so a “CTL-v” will paste or if that was lost simply click in the edit window, do a “CTL-a” (select all) and then a “CTL-v” to paste. Then submit to post.

You never loose your work this way and always have a copy for future posts if needed.
Thanks so much for the tip! I can tell this would save a lot of work and prevent some headaches. I just tried to use my double arrow keys but couldn't get them to work. I have a relatively new Mac laptop and don't know my way around it too well yet. Will try to figure out what's wrong.
robysue wrote:Are you still keeping the sleep log? And if so, what goes in to it?
Yes, I'm still keeping it. Here's what I log:

nap times (although they are not allowed)
name of sleep aid, if used, and dose
time I turned out the lights and got into bed
minutes it took to fall asleep
number of times I woke
number of minutes of each awakening
time of final awakening
time I got out of bed
quality of last night's sleep
how I felt when I woke
robysue wrote:So you can be happy that the sleep restricted schedule isn't even more restrictive.
Yes, I am! I feel fortunate to have been allowed 7 hours.
robysue wrote:Was the nap WITH the PAP? It's critically important that if you're going to cheat that you at least cheat with the PAP. But it's better if you can NOT get into the habit of cheating. The problem with that 45 minute nap is that it's going to make you a lot more prone to waking up and not getting back to sleep again tonight.
No, it was without the PAP. I know it's a no-no. But I did it anyway, positioned on my side, on the couch. If I have to go upstairs and wash my face so the mask will seal, wipe the mask out, connect the mask to the hose, etc., it becomes too much work for a 30-45 minute nap. I guess I should use this as an incentive to avoid naps!
robysue wrote:That's progress. Would you say that the sleep between midnight and the 5:30 wake is relatively continuous or not?
Yes, it's relatively continuous, except for the restless stirring and increasing arousals as I approach the 5:30 mark. Despite the nap I took yesterday afternoon, last night I may have made a little progress. Not sure why at this point. I went to bed at 12:05 am and woke at 6:25 am. I got up for the day 5 minutes later. However, that almost 6 ½ hour period was marred by lots of arousals--especially during the last hour or two.
robysue wrote:But has she explained how the sleep restricted schedule is supposed to help?
Not, not really. But your explanation really helps.
robysue wrote:A tip: It would be a good idea to try to NOT use the iPAP or your smart phone or a computer or the TV during your sleep window of 12:00 to 7:00am. The screens emit blue light which messes with the melatonin cycle. In other words, getting on the iPAP may make you more AWAKE and less likely to start feeling sleepy when you are out of bed.
Yes, I really want to stop the iPad. I have some good sleep music on my iPod, which is a better thing. Also, I have some brainwave entrainment mp3s, which would help me get back to sleep, I think. I haven't tried them in the middle of the night, but will.
robysue wrote:Is there morning light coming in your bedroom windows around the time of the wake?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is also a sleep phase problem. Out of pure curiosity: Do you think you could function long term with a seven hour sleep window that runs from 10:30 pm to 5:30 AM? In other words, would you be able to go to sleep by 10:30 on most nights without any additional medication if you were getting up at 5:30 every single day, including your days off?
No, no morning light. I have blinds and dark curtains. So I get very little light. To answer your other question . . . I'm not sure. I think I would do OK on 7 hours of sleep but 7 ½ would be ideal for me. At least that's what I remember needing back in the late 90s before all of this started. And going to sleep at 10:30 sounds feasible. I've never had much trouble with falling asleep at bedtime. Occasionally I do, but only occasionally. (It's the early morning awakenings that are the problem.)

I'm going to have to quit so I can go to bed. Didn't realize it was so late. Will finish this tomorrow.

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by robysue » Sat May 17, 2014 10:22 pm

wearysoul wrote:
robysue wrote:Are you still keeping the sleep log? And if so, what goes in to it?
Yes, I'm still keeping it. Here's what I log:

nap times (although they are not allowed)
name of sleep aid, if used, and dose
time I turned out the lights and got into bed
minutes it took to fall asleep
number of times I woke
number of minutes of each awakening
time of final awakening
time I got out of bed
quality of last night's sleep
how I felt when I woke
Are the following estimates instead of based on what the clock says:
  • minutes it took to fall asleep
    number of minutes of each awakening
    time of final awakening (I could see if this one is "clock", more on that in a bit)
If you are relying on looking at the clock for the "time" of the last awakening, you might be better off using the CPAP: Turn the machine OFF and back ON before turning over to go back to sleep. The time of the wake will be easy to find in the CPAP data when you look at it in Sleepy Head.

No, it [the nap] was without the PAP. I know it's a no-no. But I did it anyway, positioned on my side, on the couch. If I have to go upstairs and wash my face so the mask will seal, wipe the mask out, connect the mask to the hose, etc., it becomes too much work for a 30-45 minute nap. I guess I should use this as an incentive to avoid naps!
Yes, that might work for keeping you from taking the naps. Keep in mind the nap ban is NOT permanent. It's just until you get those pesky sleep cycles properly consolidated.
robysue wrote:That's progress. Would you say that the sleep between midnight and the 5:30 wake is relatively continuous or not?
Yes, it's relatively continuous, except for the restless stirring and increasing arousals as I approach the 5:30 mark.
That is progress. Hopefully as you continue the sleep restricted schedule the pre-5:30 sleep will be come even more continuous at the same time the 5:30 wake wake shortens. But you should expect some "two steps forward, one step backwards" type progress at times.
However, that almost 6 ½ hour period was marred by lots of arousals--especially during the last hour or two.
How many arousals and how aware were you of them?


robysue wrote:Is there morning light coming in your bedroom windows around the time of the wake?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is also a sleep phase problem. Out of pure curiosity: Do you think you could function long term with a seven hour sleep window that runs from 10:30 pm to 5:30 AM? In other words, would you be able to go to sleep by 10:30 on most nights without any additional medication if you were getting up at 5:30 every single day, including your days off?
No, no morning light. I have blinds and dark curtains. So I get very little light. To answer your other question . . . I'm not sure. I think I would do OK on 7 hours of sleep but 7 ½ would be ideal for me. At least that's what I remember needing back in the late 90s before all of this started.
Baby steps. Once you are consistently getting 6.5 hours of sleep in your 7 hour sleep window, you'll be allowed to start increasing the sleep window in 10-15 minute increments until you are getting enough actual sleep to feel decent in a small enough "sleep window" to keep the sleep efficiency at 90% or better. To give you an idea: To get 7.5 hours of sleep with 90% efficicency, you need to get 7.5 hours of sleep in a sleep window that is roughly no longer than 8:15 in length (and an 8 hour sleep window would be better.)

The critical thing once you are allowed to start increasing the sleep window will be this: If the sleep efficiency drops below roughly 90% when you increase the sleep window, you go back to the previous, somewhat shorter window for a week or so to get the sleep efficiency back up to 90%. And then you try increasing the sleep window by 10-15 minutes again. This stage is easy for some people and devilishly difficult for others. That's essentially why I know my natural sleep time seems to be about 6-6.5 hours instead of 7: If I increase my time in bed much beyond 6.5-7 hours my sleep efficiency drops, sometimes by quite a bit. On the other hand, if I'm consistently getting 6 hours of sleep in a 6.5 sleep window, I function well even though most don't.
And going to sleep at 10:30 sounds feasible. I've never had much trouble with falling asleep at bedtime. Occasionally I do, but only occasionally. (It's the early morning awakenings that are the problem.)
If you went to bed at 10:30, would you sleep until 5:30 and then be able to get up for the day? Or would you wake up at around 3:30 and have a difficult time getting back to sleep?

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Re: need help with Sleepyhead data

Post by Todzo » Sun May 18, 2014 3:22 am

wearysoul wrote:
Thanks so much for the tip! I can tell this would save a lot of work and prevent some headaches. I just tried to use my double arrow keys but couldn't get them to work. I have a relatively new Mac laptop and don't know my way around it too well yet. Will try to figure out what's wrong.
Oh I probably did not explain it very well.

This is what a “to be quoted” section would look like:

>>This section is to be quoted<<

So then the two right arrows (greater than signs – shift period) become the “search key” in the find and replace dialog box (under “Search For” in the box) and the “begin quote with name” HTML goes in the “Replace With” window of the dialog box. When you hit the “Replace All” button note the number of times it was replaced. When you use the two left arrows (less than signs – shift comma) to be the “Search For” in the dialog box the second time and use the end quote HTML in the “Replace With” window of the dialog box hitting the “Replace All” button should yield the same number of replacements. If not you probably missed one some place and need to find it.

Anyway have a lot of fun!!

Todzo
May any shills trolls sockpuppets or astroturfers at cpaptalk.com be like chaff before the wind!