my new fun open source project

[space45]

it is a new project, and my new fun project will have this disclaimer. for the ones that warned me about the legal problems something like this may pose, please do not take this as a shot or any insults or in any other offensive or upsetting way. it is not meant or targeted at anyone here as being sarcastic or offensive or insulting. it is targeted solely at a legal system that I find nuttier then a fruit cake. this is one way to mount a defense of said system. also, anyone that can not read it and see it for exactly what it is and what it's intent is meant for, I do not want them being anywhere around me or said project or having anything to do with even discussing it with someone. I do hope it brings a smile to your face or better yet has you rolling on the floor laughing. that said here it is

this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project is not a meant or intended as a medical device nor is it meant or intended to be used as a medical device. also anyone that embarks on or in anyway has anything to do with this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project should consider themselves in great danger, even things like posting anything to any where that has any connection or even referencing this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project should consider it a dangerous and reckless thing to do and to be very bad for themselves and or anyone around and or connected to them in any way. extreme caution should be used if your force ( as this is the only reason or condition in witch approaching unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project should even be considered) to be within 100 yards or meters of this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project, even when it is unplugged and believed to be completely inactive and inert, it still could pose extreme danger and be a risk to you and anyone you know and or are connected to you in any way. one should avoid looking at the unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project with out the proper government approve and certified eye protection and safety equipment as it could be bad for one and should be avoided at all cost, unless forced to under extreme duress, a condition one should do their best to avoid if at all possible. but if said condition can not be avoided then kissing loved one good bye would not be a bad thing to consider, and possibly saying good bye to all you know would not be such a bad thing ether at such a time. if you do manage to hurt or injure yourself with this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project get immediate aid as soon as possible and be glad it was not worse and that your still around to tell your story to, or better yet warn others of your near death experience and the dangers of this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project. having anything to do with this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project should or being with in the stated 100 yard or meters and or looking at this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project with out the proper government approve and certified eye protection and safety equipment should be looked at like playing Russian roulette and be avoided at all costs.

any oversight and or omission in this warning and or disclaimer that leads to the injury and or death and or loss of any kind by you and or everyone and or anyone you know and or have any connection to in any way including any and all offspring for time and marmoreal as a direct and or indirect result of anything to do with this unit and or device and or project or anything associated or connected to this unit and or device and or project shall in no way be anyone's fault but yours and you shell be held responsible for any and or all damages or expenses incurred.

consider yourself warned as no further warning maybe given or is warranted. this warning should be noted in some way that will guarantee that you and or everyone and or anyone you know and or have any connection to in any way will remember for the rest of yours and their lives including any and all offspring for time and marmoreal.

end of disclaimer

now that should cover about 10% of all law suet's. just have to dream up a statement that will cover the rest
so how am I doing so far? what do you guys think? is it usable in any way? partly joking but also more so some what serious


as for the new open source project, they will be other things not even close to this or have anything to do with sleep or medical stuff. the modular system of sleep related things and devices , will be more or less modules that one can buy that have a legit purpose all by them salves but can be repurposed, somewhat like the blow drier they started with, sorry but to me it is a repurposed blow drier.

most of the work is already done in other open source projects and have nothing to do with me, including some very nice programs

the lab should not be hard for someone to do as it will be all modules they can put together if some one wants to and use them to make things, including sleep related things, and to use at their own risk if they wish to actually try them out.

I need to explore why I am not sleeping better and how to improve my sleep. I am not prepared to wait till after I am gone for someone to do the right thing and work on ways to find out more and to try understand and to at least try to over come sleep problems. anyone that wants to be a part of this can, it could be by just uploading any and all data you have collected over time and feel comfortable sharing. no names need to be attached, but some type of account for each person need to be set up so updates can be added to the data already in the system. we do not need to have any names or ID to the person sending in the data, just need a name or number for the data that one can use to add their data updates to. this will be a open data base to anyone that wants the data. the idea is it will become a large scale open source polysomnogram project that will hopefully allow anyone to write programs to analyze and find patterns or get a better understandings of sleep and how it works. one thing I would love to see is data from non problematic sleepers, the better the sleeper the more I would love to see any and all data we can get. to that end I would love to try and get members of the OSA community to donate if they are able so data collecting units to be used by the OSA community to get as many others helping out using the free units to monitor good sleepers and upload the data. would like to get as much data for as long as we can from others with out OSA that are willing to help out the OSA community.

any and all help would be welcome, will need to setup a nonprofit organization for the collection of money to pay for the data collection units, also the units can be used for detecting OSA as well. BTW I would love it if a group from the OSA community would set up and the nonprofit org, that way there would be more trust and way less for me to do, my plate is already to full as it is, but over time if no one does step forward to spearhead this I will eventually do it on my own, hopefully by then the OSA community will know me better and be more comfortable with me and my running something like this. I do hope it does not come to that, as help would be so much better.

hope this all is taken in the sprite it is meant, I know I am extremely new here and non of you know me even remotely, other then what I have told you, but it would be nice to get this whole thing going, I fully intend to proceed with or with out help, but some help will be warmly welcome.

hope I do not get burned to bad for all this.
stan

[Julie]

VVV - if you see his other recent threads this one makes sense as a joke... he may be a little eccentric, but not 'crazy'.

[chunkyfrog]

We all have our demons; some more than others.
---Never consider brilliance a gift unilaterally.

[robysue]

I need to explore why I am not sleeping better and how to improve my sleep.

Sometimes once the obvious OSA problems are taken care of, the sleep remains bad for other reasons. Sometimes they show up in the data and sometimes they don't.

A lot of times the cause for bad sleep isn't physical, but it's lifestyle choices and how we choose to react to waking in the middle of the night. Sometimes keeping a sleep journal will provide you with a lot more relevant data to explain bad sleep than kind of objective data you want to gather in your open polysomnagram project. You might want to read through Sound Sleep, Sound Mind by Dr. Barry Krakow to gain an understanding of what kinds of things we (consciously) do that adversely affect our sleep and how changing behaviour patterns can go a long way in fixing bad sleep that is NOT caused by a physical cause like OSA or PLMD. (Krakow also talks at length about how things like OSA and PLMD can also lead to bad sleep and why treating these kinds of conditions is necessary to fix the bad sleep.

But a lot of the time we're our own worst enemy by trying to find some piece of data to explain the bad sleep when there just isn't anything that terribly wrong with our sleep except that we're worried that it's bad sleep.

It has taken me a very long time to learn this lesson from Sludge:

However, sleep is exceedingly complex, and the Company Line is still Do Not Spend A Lot of (Any)Time Concerned (Obsessed) About Sleep. (said at the end of this thread: Fractured sleep, Ambien, dial wingin' and other things)

Sometimes the cure for bad sleep is simply to quit worrying about sleep and just do it. That's the only explanation I can find for why my sleep has turned around so much since I started the Fractured sleep, Ambien, dial wingin' and other things thread: As I've (slowly) managed to let go of worrying so much about the quality of my sleep, it's gotten better.

[robysue]

the idea is it will become a large scale open source polysomnogram project that will hopefully allow anyone to write programs to analyze and find patterns or get a better understandings of sleep and how it works.

Curiosity: How do you intend on getting the data to analyze?? Sure, an APAP/CPAP can monitor the breathing. Recording pulse ox's can take care of monitoring the O2 and the heart rate.

But what about reliable EEGs while you're sleeping? (The old Zeo is not really a reliable EEG for doing real polysomnogram work.) Without the EEG data, there is no way to reliably tell when you're asleep and when you're awake. You can infer wakes and arousals from data gathered from an accelerometer, but that's really just a gross approximation for the EEG data itself. Still the data from an accelerometer could be used to get the larger picture of how many wakes you have each night, and that's not useless.

Data from an accelerometer won't be able to tease out REM sleep, however. For reliably detecting REM sleep, you'll also need a way to track eye movements as well as the EEG data. And maybe a way to track muscle movements it the jaw as well.

And again, you'll need that EEG data to figure out Stage III (slow wave sleep).

And what about the sensors for detecting periodic limb movements? They may or may not be large enough to pick up with an infrared camera.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that some of the needed equipment is NOT cheap, easy to find or easy to build.

one thing I would love to see is data from non problematic sleepers, the better the sleeper the more I would love to see any and all data we can get.

Why would any non problematic sleeper choose to participate in your project?

to that end I would love to try and get member of the OSA community to donate if they are able so data collecting units to be used by the OSA community to get as many others helping out using the free units to monitor good sleepers and upload the data.

Why would any person who does NOT have sleep apnea chose to sleep using a CPAP for several nights??

I can't even get people who think they might have OSA to even consider trying on a mask for a few minutes, let alone sleep with the dang thing all night long ....

hope I do not get burned to bad for all this.

I'm not trying to burn you. I really am curious as to how you think you can build this "better and cheaper mousetrap". And make sure that it works so that when the analysis of your data is finally done, it actually does say something meaningful to you.

[sciflyer]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Sludge]

[LSAT]

Pie in the sky? I was thinking fruitcake!

[49er]

Pie in the sky? I was thinking fruitcake!

It looked like pecan pie to me.

[SleepWrangler]

The old Zeo is not really a reliable EEG for doing real polysomnogram work.

That is a great reference project and dovetails nicely with the stream of consciousness from Stan. Why was the Zeo not reliable for doing real polysomnogram work? The signal collection technology seems pretty basic whereas automated analysis software is still the subject of academic research [1,2,3]. Even so, I thought the failure was commercial and not technology [4].

[1] Automatic Sleep Stage Classification Based on EEG Signals by Using Neural Networks and Wavelet Packet Coefficients
[2] Automatic Sleep Stages Detection Based on EEG Signals Using Combination of Classifiers
[3] Automatic classification of Sleep Stages on a EEG signal by Artificial Neural Networks
[4] mobihealthnews Take positive lessons from Zeo failure..

[robysue]

The old Zeo is not really a reliable EEG for doing real polysomnogram work.

That is a great reference project and dovetails nicely with the stream of consciousness from Stan. Why was the Zeo not reliable for doing real polysomnogram work? The signal collection technology seems pretty basic whereas automated analysis software is still the subject of academic research [1,2,3].

Zeo's own PR stuff said that the EEG data was about 75% accurate---"good enough for a home device intended to provide the user with broad indications of what was going on."

Its instructions also came with plenty of statements along the lines that REM vs WAKE vs LIGHT sleep was very difficult to distinguish in some people with only the limited EEG data the Zeo gathered and that if your numbers consistently showed very little REM and much more WAKE than you actually remembered, chances are that some of the WAKE was actually REM. My own Zeo data seems to back that up: It consistently shows very long wakes in the later half of the night at points where I know for sure that I was NOT awake for long periods of time. Most of the time I think those stretches are probably REM, but sometimes LIGHT SLEEP may be a more accurate interpretation, but I have no proof that my interpretation is reasonable and I certainly would not want to look at someone else's Zeo EEG data and make the same claim about their data.

So as someone who used (still uses actually) a Zeo, I have to say that the Zeo is a nice approximation for the real EEG data, but no-one should take Zeo data that shows excessive amounts of WASO and use that to conclude that they've got serious WASO problems. If Stan wants to use the Zeo to gather the EEG data, he's going to need some pretty sophisticated knowledge and programming to reliably tease out a hypnogram that is sufficiently accurate for serious work in analyzing sleep on a large scale for large numbers of people.

Even so, I thought the failure was commercial and not technology [4].

Yes, the failure was largely commercial. But again, they never sold the Zeo as being accurate enough to compare to an in-lab polysomnogram's EEG data. Their disclaimers about not being a medical device (those pesky regulations again) made it clear that they regarded a roughly 75% accuracy rate at distinguishing the actual sleep state as "good enough" and this is, in part, why their web site and the LED on the machine itself did "majority voting" over a 5 minute window to infer the sleep state (Light vs Deep vs REM) during a 5 minute window.

[Sludge]

...to infer the sleep state (Light vs Deep vs REM) during a 5 minute window.

Further, Light Sleep is divided into NREM1 and NREM2. NREM2 (Industrial Grade Sleep, or IGS) serves a number of important functions, but NREM1 (Waste Of Time, or WOT) has no practical purpose other than serving as the pathway to NREM2.

Severe sleep disruption may have a substantially greater proportion of NREM1, so it is critical to know the NREM1%.

As well as the number of arousals (actually even more important).

Since ZEO assumes normal NREM1% and Arousal Index, it is only helpful if your sleep is normal.

Course, if your sleep is normal, why would one want to microanalyze one's sleep?

[Sludge]

As well as a few other things, like the ZEO guys said "Wow, SWS is good (the sleep, not the guy)(well, the guy is good, too)(but that's not the point right now) and it's easy to measure at the front of the brain (forehead) so we have a winner here!", but bad sleep needs to be looked at (additionally)(mostly)(maybe between additionally and mostly) at the back of head, and ZEO dry sensor technology needs skin, so now you have to shave the back of your head and wear the ZEO backwards.

THEN, you need to build a cable and do a direct feed from ZEO (noted elsewhere) and manually analyze the data, which will take 30 to 45 minutes (if you know what you're doing) every day.

SO, we start to get into that "obscessed about sleep" thing again...

[SleepWrangler]

... so now you have to shave the back of your head and wear the ZEO backwards.

OK. This suggestion is practical and more consistent with the purpose of the forum. Now, who goes first?

[Sludge]

... so now you have to shave the back of your head and wear the ZEO backwards.

OK. This suggestion is practical and more consistent with the purpose of the forum. Now, who goes first?

Actually, we need to save this for when we're down by 4 runs in the bottom of the ninth.

These will be the Rally ZEOs!