multi day battery operation

[jondough]

as i mentioned in another post, i am going to an island vacation spot with no electricity on the island but available 10 mins. by boat. i did not take my machine last year and found it a big mistake.

i have spent hours reading hundreds of messages and did not find a concise experiential answer for a solution. it seems like the xantrex 400 or 600 could be possibilities but i found no "lasting time" for a typical xPap. I would consider the 1500 but at 60# would be a lot to put in a 13' Boston Whaler and then lung 100+ feet up into the cabin.

I have a BiPapPro2 and am on the verge of a AutoBiPap. These use more power than a typical xPap.

I would like to have something that lasts four or more longish nights, as I tend to sleep for 8-9 hours.

One issue is that the BiPPro2 is a 24VDC machine. Does the cpap.com cable convert the 12VDC to 24 and does it have the odd miniDIN connector with the two size pins in it?

Also, somewhere in that reading I seem to remember someone mentioning that the AutoBiPap was not a DC voltage machine with the PS internal. Can this run off a quasi sine inverter?

Any direct experience responses appreciated.

[Guest]

get yourself one of these:

[roster]

If you go with a generator, don't forget you have to bring a supply of gasoline and you have to place the generator away from the sleeper to avoid carbon monoxide danger. The third disadvantage of generators is unreliability, but I bet Honda eliminated this disadvantage.

I need a backup power supply because at home we lose power several nights per year due to thunderstorms and icestorms. I considered a generator which would be stored in my garage where there is always a fresh supply of gasoline for the lawn tractor. The plan for power outages would be to sit the generator on my back patio and run an electrical cord around the corner of the house through my bedroom window which would be sealed off with towels to allow the cord to enter. I haven't bought a generator because I don't like the idea of setting it up during a thunderstorm or icestorm. Also the Honda is quite expensive. I could buy with the same money a BreatheX CPAP and a passover humidifier.

So like jondough I am interested in a Xantrex power pack. Fischer & Paykel told me I need a converter with 200w/300w surge but I don't know how to calculate how long a fully charged Xantrex power pack will run my system including the heated humidifier.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): humidifier, CPAP, Power

[jondough]

So, brilliant Guest, you are suggesting that I lug another $700 and 30#, plus gas, setup, run the generator all night, or all day to charge the battery with no information on the load or usage.

Understand, this is in the middle of the Maine woods. We have no electricity for a reason. I am trying to get an unobtrusive solution for my singular medical problem that does not cost a fortune.

I ask specifically for experiential solutions and word on how long a 20 or 28AH battery may work with an xPap.

I also ask for experience with doing this with a BiPapPro2 or BiPapAuto because they seem to be different animals.

Thanks.

[Tumbleweed]

What Guest might be suggesting, Jon, is to forgo the battery buisness and use the generator to power the machine. I have the same Honda generator, but the 2000i model. Mine runs up to 14 hours on 1 gallon of gas....... almost 2 nights worth of therapy with a left over to run lights, fans, etc. as necessary. IMHO, I would rather lug a bit of gas and my 49# generator with me than to go without my S8 Vantage at this point in my life. These Hondas are so quiet that you almost have to be within 10 feet of em to even be able to hear that's they're running! We also use this thing when we have our usual power outages here in Florida and even at the many craft shows my wife does with her pine needle basketry. Even on the hottest days, we have fans to stay cool and powered coolers to stay cold!

[roster]

Tumbleweed: I need something because in North Carolina we lose power to thunderstorms also. Can you give me a detailed description of your process when the power is out? Things like where do you place the generator, how do you run the power cord from the generator into the house and anything else you think important?

I am concerned about having to go outside in a lightning storm, setup the generator and run the power cord through a bedroom window. Any tips will be appreciated.

rooster

[jkeene]

I've used my BiPAP Auto with a Xantrex 400 successfully. Had read some cautions about that, that perhaps the BiPAP was more sensitive to pure electricity than other machines, so I contacted Respironics. They said it would be fine.

Life's been hectic, but last night I remembered to switch over the power cables so the BiPAP was connected to the inverter output from my Xantrex 400. Worked fine. I specifically left the humidifier on a wall socket, won't put that on the Xantrex, as the output is not pure sine.

If I remember tonight I'll disconnect the Xantrex charger from the wall before I go to sleep, then measure the remaining charge in the battery in the morning. Been meaning to do this anyways, since I haven't tested how many nights the Xantrex will power my BiPAP while camping. When I was on CPAP 10 cm2 it did two nights easily, and probably would have done three, just never had a three night trip with it.

For your situation in Maine you might consider hauling a couple of fully charged 28ah batteries and an inverter up the hill. A lot of it is going to depend on your pressure needs through the night, though. If the auto kicks you up to the top of your range all night long because you're exhausted and having lots of apneas, the batteries are going to drain faster than what you or I may experience sleeping in a comfortable bed in a house after a day in the office. So whatever numbers go into your solution a padding factor would be prudent.

Anyways, I'll post the battery drain percentage in the morning, and try to get some sense of the shape of the pressure curve in there as well.

[bbeck4x4]

for camping I use a Optima yellow top battery, after three days the battery dropped three volts. But a Optima is a bit overkill.

Brian

[Sleepy-in-AL]

There are LOTS of factors that can affect your particular outcome. But here is some real world information:

I have a BiPAP Auto, which I believe will be similar in current draw to your BiPAP Pro2. I tested using a cheap 300W power inverter to supply 110VAC to supply the normal power supply for this unit. The BiPAP Pro2 and the AUTO do not use 12VDC, they use 24VDC. So, just a cable won't cut it. Respironics does make a power supply to use in place of your 110V power supply for 12VDC operation but it costs $169. I don't have any definate specs on it, but I suspect it will perform only slightly better than the inverter.

The current draws listed here are the amount of current that the inverter is drawing from the 12V supply. My Auto draws .88 amps in standby. That is everything is just plugged in and not turned on. It draws 2 amps at 11 cm WC and 2.3 amps at 13 cm WC pressure. The higher the pressure, the more current it will draw and lower pressures will draw less. I would calculate based on at least 2 amp average draw, no matter how much lower your pressure is.

Now, if your batteries could really provide 28AH, that would be 14 hours at 2 amps. But, the 28 AH figure from the manufacturer is a theoretical limit extrapolated from the best possible drain scenario they can set up and draining the battery to zero. The inverter will cut off due to low voltage long before you "completely" discharge the battery. I would think you will be extremely lucky to get 6 or 7 hours before the inverter shuts off due to low voltage. I really wouldn't expect to make it through the night on a single 28AH battery.

These are based on just the BiPAP, as others have said, if you try to use the heated humidifier on the inverter not only will you drain the battery in just a few minutes, you will likely damage the humidifier. The humidifier requires a true sine wave power source to operate.

[Sleepy-in-AL]

Tumbleweed: I need something because in North Carolina we lose power to thunderstorms also. Can you give me a detailed description of your process when the power is out? Things like where do you place the generator, how do you run the power cord from the generator into the house and anything else you think important?

I am concerned about having to go outside in a lightning storm, setup the generator and run the power cord through a bedroom window. Any tips will be appreciated.

rooster

Rooster,

If you only want something for short duration power outages, get a UPS at a computer store or office supply. If you want to run with the UPS all the time, order an extra power cable from cpap.com to plug your xPAP directly into the wall and not the UPS. Plugging the humidifier into the UPS could damge the humidifier and will drain the batteries almost instantly in the event of a power outage.

If you are looking at something to last much longer, then a generator is one option. They make natural gas and propane generators that auto start for backup power. They are available throug Lowes and Home Depot, but they are EXPENSIVE. I think the auto start hardwired gensets start at around $4000 plus the electrician's time to wire it up and the plumbing costs for the gas.

[jkeene]

I tried running my BiPAP Auto from just the Xantrex 400 last night, without any charger feeding the Xantrex.

Drained it flat at just under seven hours. Wasn't even feeding the humidifier from the battery, left that in the wall. Pressure curve was fairly normal for me, 90% IPAP was 12, EPAP was 8.

Reputedly the Xantrex has a 20ah battery inside it, but the low battery alarm went off at just under seven hours of use, and the remaining charge readout showed 0%.

I think my camping trips will be done with just the standard Remstar Plus, the BiPAP gets to stay home.

[jondough]

Sleepy-In-AL and jkeene. Thank you for the very experiential information. This was the help I was looking for, actual use, not hypotheticals.

Yes, I had found that the BiPapPro2 AND the AutoBi both run on 24VDC so using the AC cord is probably the [only?] way to go and let the units DCPS do its work, though it is inefficient to change DC to AC to DC. It looks like the Zantrex 600 with a 28AH battery will give just one night so a generator for recharging [by DC] during the day may be the answer instead of a larger battery or hauling back and forth ever day.

I am going to look into alternatives to the Honda2000, a bit pricy but a nice package. I am also going to look into renting a smaller bi-level machine like the 425 for two weeks and hope that at 12V it may give me more life. Any experience on an alternative bi-level? I run at 13 and 9 usually on my BiPap. The Auto is around the corner, probably after this trip.

I do understand to not run a humidifier on inverted DC and why.

Thanks for the very helpful info. Any additional appreciated.

[Jimm (guested)]

Plugging the humidifier into the UPS could damge the humidifier and will drain the batteries almost instantly in the event of a power outage.

Would you expand on this comment please. I keep my Remstar Auto w/heated humidifier plugged into a computer UPS because we have these momentary (just a second or two) outages sometimes and when these happen the APAP seems to keep going but the humidifier turns off and stays off. I react very badly when I don't have sufficient humidification (sneezing and congestion) so I've been using the UPS. I figured that it would only provide power for a minute or so but that would be enough to overcome the short outages and if the outage lasted longer, everything would just power off. Am I risking damaging my equipment by using the UPS?

[Sleepy-in-AL]

Plugging the humidifier into the UPS could damge the humidifier and will drain the batteries almost instantly in the event of a power outage.

Would you expand on this comment please. I keep my Remstar Auto w/heated humidifier plugged into a computer UPS because we have these momentary (just a second or two) outages sometimes and when these happen the APAP seems to keep going but the humidifier turns off and stays off. I react very badly when I don't have sufficient humidification (sneezing and congestion) so I've been using the UPS. I figured that it would only provide power for a minute or so but that would be enough to overcome the short outages and if the outage lasted longer, everything would just power off. Am I risking damaging my equipment by using the UPS?

Jimm,

It depends on the UPS you have. If it is a "true sinewave" then it may be OK, but most of the cheaper ones put out a modified sinewave. While this may not mean anything to you, it does to the electronics inside the humidifier. I haven't done enough research to know exactly what the problem is, but there have been reports of damage to humidifiers.

I just did a test. If you purchase a seperate power cord and plug the humidifier directly in to the wall and plug the xPAP into the UPS it might work ok. On my BiPAP Auto, the humidifier would come back on after losing power. However, this may apply only during the initial timed startup. I'll try an extended test later tonight and post back tomorrow. Even if it doesn't, you will still have humidification, it just won't be heated.

[Jimm]

Thanks for the reply Sleepy-in-AL. I think I'm logged in this time so my profile should show that I have a Remstar Auto with the integrated heated humidifier. I like the machine except for that the humidifier has to be turned on seperately every time the machine is turned on (I've forgotten a couple of times and had serious nasal problems the next day).

Just leaving the machine plugged in to the UPS while the humidifier gets plugged into the wall would defeat the reason I started using the UPS in the first place since passover humidification just isn't enough for me. I know that the humidifier would only run for a very short amount of time (maybe a couple of minutes?) before the UPS power would run out. Could serious damage be done in that short period?