Totally getting rid of my apnea

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

I never thought I would be thinking this or saying this, but I think it is possible for me to totally get rid of my sleep apnea. Or come very very close to it. I say this after I saw how my pressures dropped from a simple tonsillectomy I had last April. And came off all the painkillers. My 95th percentile dropped from the 14s and 15s to the 11s!!!! Just from removing my enlarged tonsils! My ENT told me he believed it would drop my pressures a good amount, I was frankly skeptical of that claim before and during the tonsillectomy.

But turns out it was a true prediction the ENT made for me.

So, that got me to thinking since about, oh July. Hell, I think if I do the right things I could get rid of my OSA. I say that knowing it will be hard to do and that I have several things I can permanently change.

Right now my 95th percentile on a Resmed S9 APAP is in the low to mid 11s.

My plan?

1) get off all benzodiazapines
2) deviated nasal septum surgery/sinus surgery
3) weight loss

I believe between these three things I can change, I can get my pressures really low. Based upon past experiences, Ive found that my pressures drop about a full point for each mg of klonopin I go off of. So, Im on 4 mg klonopin at bedtime and have been there for years. I figure if I get off the klonopin completely, my 95th percentile will drop from the 11s to the low 8s or to the 7s.

That right there is a huge drop and a big improvement.

Then lose forty pounds and keep it off. Based on past experiences, that will drop my pressures another full point. So then I'd be down to the low 6s. Ive never gotten under 200 lbs since being on CPAP gear, so if I lose another thirty pounds and get down to 170 lbs, who knows what my pressures would drop to? The 5s? 4?

Then if I got my deviated nasal septum surgically corrected and my sinuses surgically enlarged, I'd reduce nasal airway resistance (NAR) and Im figuring thats worth a full point reduction.

Eric

[herefishy]

Good luck - I think it will all depend on what your palate, tongue and throat do in response to all those goodies.

[Todzo]

During my pursuit of metabolic health I have seen my pressures drop and perhaps I will see an end of OSA.

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

Well, Im saying I believe I can get rid of my apnea completely or very close to it based upon 1) the major pressure drop I experienced after my tonsil removal, 2) past experience with going down just one mg of klonopin, much less 4 mg and 3) past experience with losing forty to forty five pounds. I am a skeptic by nature, but its simple math, really.

I would never have been posting this before the tonsillectomy, I am glad I did that.

Eric

[49er]

Hi Eric,

I wish you all the luck in the world in achieving your goal.

I may need nasal surgery but I know it won't cure my apnea since I am pretty close to normal weight. But if anyone can, all the more power to you.

49er

I never thought I would be thinking this or saying this, but I think it is possible for me to totally get rid of my sleep apnea. Or come very very close to it. I say this after I saw how my pressures dropped from a simple tonsillectomy I had last April. And came off all the painkillers. My 95th percentile dropped from the 14s and 15s to the 11s!!!! Just from removing my enlarged tonsils! My ENT told me he believed it would drop my pressures a good amount, I was frankly skeptical of that claim before and during the tonsillectomy.

But turns out it was a true prediction the ENT made for me.

So, that got me to thinking since about, oh July. Hell, I think if I do the right things I could get rid of my OSA. I say that knowing it will be hard to do and that I have several things I can permanently change.

Right now my 95th percentile on a Resmed S9 APAP is in the low to mid 11s.

My plan?

1) get off all benzodiazapines
2) deviated nasal septum surgery/sinus surgery
3) weight loss

I believe between these three things I can change, I can get my pressures really low. Based upon past experiences, Ive found that my pressures drop about a full point for each mg of klonopin I go off of. So, Im on 4 mg klonopin at bedtime and have been there for years. I figure if I get off the klonopin completely, my 95th percentile will drop from the 11s to the low 8s or to the 7s.

That right there is a huge drop and a big improvement.

Then lose forty pounds and keep it off. Based on past experiences, that will drop my pressures another full point. So then I'd be down to the low 6s. Ive never gotten under 200 lbs since being on CPAP gear, so if I lose another thirty pounds and get down to 170 lbs, who knows what my pressures would drop to? The 5s? 4?

Then if I got my deviated nasal septum surgically corrected and my sinuses surgically enlarged, I'd reduce nasal airway resistance (NAR) and Im figuring thats worth a full point reduction.

Eric

[Pugsy]

Just because a person can use 4 or 5 or 6 cm pressure doesn't mean that the sleep apnea events are gone or minimal in number.
All it means is that not much pressure is needed to hold the airway open....has nothing to do with whether a person has OSA or not or even severity.
Even a 4 cm pressure is considered therapeutic and doesn't mean that if a person only needs 4 cm...they don't need any pressure.
Heck, someone can have an AHI of 100 and only need 4 cm of pressure to prevent them.
People tend to think that pressure needed is relative to the "severity" of the OSA...and if they don't need much pressure then things aren't anything but very mild in terms of severity of the diagnosis...that's so totally wrong.
It's all about the airway tissues themselves and how much pressure is needed to keep it open and prevent the airway tissues from collapsing.

As I have mentioned in the past...a person could have an AHI of 100 and only need a pressure of 4 or 5 to do the job of holding the airway open..
and a person might have an AHI of 7.0 without cpap which would be considered "mild" and they might need 20 cm...at all depends on the airway tissues themselves...bone thin skinny people can need 20 cm...
That said..it never hurts to lose excess pounds for any reason and it might help reduce pressure needs to make therapy more easy to do or it might make the OSA go away but it isn't a sure fire 100% outcome.
Must have a real sleep study once the weight is gone to know for sure..and must be without a cpap machine or pressure...using 4 cm is still pressure used and in some cases it is enough to keep the apnea events from occurring.

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

Oh I agree totally. I have actually told my sleep medicine doctors that someday, if I ever get my pressures down to just six or seven, I am still going to be on CPAP. Because it has such a critical controlling effect on my mood and energy levels. That being said, I honestly never thought I'd ever get rid of my OSA before the tonsillectomy. That changed my thinking on the subject and was unanticipated by myself.

Its simple math:

Before tonsillectomy: 95th percentile was consistently in the 14s to 15s

After tonsillectomy full recovery: 95th percentile dropped into the low to mid 11s

If I go off all klonopin (a potent depressant and sedative), my experience has been a point drop for each mg of klonopin. Im on four mg klonopin, therefore I should expect a drop of three to four points, which would bring me down to low 8s or the 7s. Lets be conservative and say, the low 8s after discontinuing ALL klonopin.

Then lose forty pounds and get down to 200 lbs again. Im down to the low 7s now.

Then have deviated nasal septum corrective surgery and sinus surgery to reduce NAR. I figure another drop of a point. Down to low 6s

Then I have bariatric surgery and lose the remaining fat and get down to 165, my ideal weight. That drops my pressure needs down to under 4.

Eric

Just because a person can use 4 or 5 or 6 cm pressure doesn't mean that the sleep apnea events are gone or minimal in number.

[Todzo]

There are reports of being cured of sleep apnea by:

Weight loss (better metabolic health!)
Moving ones vitamin D3 levels to between 60 and 80
Many of the methods contained within Traditional Chinese Medicine
Eucapnic Breathing
Various kinds of exercise

CPAP has usability issues which have many giving up on it and the rest reporting less than stellar results long term.

If you really do want to get better I think you need to broaden your view well past CPAP.

[Todzo]

Then lose forty pounds and get down to 200 lbs again. Im down to the low 7s now.

Then have deviated nasal septum corrective surgery and sinus surgery to reduce NAR. I figure another drop of a point. Down to low 6s

Then I have bariatric surgery and lose the remaining fat and get down to 165, my ideal weight. That drops my pressure needs down to under 4.

Eric

[/quote]

About five years ago I was where you are now in many ways. I decided to loose weight slow. I am very glad that I went this route. The body needs time to deal with all the toxins in the fat and to adapt.

I am very glad to be able to work with dietitians and personal trainers and to find good examples along the way. I really did not know and now know that I have a lot more to learn about how to take care of myself.

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

huh.... you have some weird ideas. I dont dislike CPAP Im glad I have it. I just honestly believe I can get rid of my OSA now after the unanticipated effects on my pressures by removing my tonsils.

It aint rocket science and I may be wrong.

Eric

There are reports of being cured of sleep apnea by:


Moving ones vitamin D3 levels to between 60 and 80
Many of the methods contained within Traditional Chinese Medicine
Eucapnic Breathing
Various kinds of exercise

CPAP has usability issues which have many giving up on it and the rest reporting less than stellar results long term.

If you really do want to get better I think you need to broaden your view well past CPAP.

[LSAT]

Its simple math:

Before tonsillectomy: 95th percentile was consistently in the 14s to 15s

After tonsillectomy full recovery: 95th percentile dropped into the low to mid 11s

If I go off all klonopin (a potent depressant and sedative), my experience has been a point drop for each mg of klonopin. Im on four mg klonopin, therefore I should expect a drop of three to four points, which would bring me down to low 8s or the 7s. Lets be conservative and say, the low 8s after discontinuing ALL klonopin.

Then lose forty pounds and get down to 200 lbs again. Im down to the low 7s now.

Then have deviated nasal septum corrective surgery and sinus surgery to reduce NAR. I figure another drop of a point. Down to low 6s

Then I have bariatric surgery and lose the remaining fat and get down to 165, my ideal weight. That drops my pressure needs down to under 4.

Eric

IT's great to see the glass half full......but......Come on...get real fella.

[Todzo]

huh.... you have some weird ideas. I dont dislike CPAP Im glad I have it. I just honestly believe I can get rid of my OSA now after the unanticipated effects on my pressures by removing my tonsils.

It aint rocket science and I may be wrong.

Eric

There are reports of being cured of sleep apnea by:


Moving ones vitamin D3 levels to between 60 and 80
Many of the methods contained within Traditional Chinese Medicine
Eucapnic Breathing
Various kinds of exercise

CPAP has usability issues which have many giving up on it and the rest reporting less than stellar results long term.

If you really do want to get better I think you need to broaden your view well past CPAP.

I notice that you took out the line "Weight loss (better metabolic health!)" from my post.

Those who are working with the D3 hormone (A.K.A. Vitamin D3) (e.g. Dr. Stasha Gominak, Michael F. Holick, Ph.D., M.D., Vitamin D Council) seem to be finding that the very low side of the “normal” range of 30-100 ng/L produces a range of symptoms including OSA, pain, and infection. All believe that a level lower than 50 ng/mL is not good and Dr. Stasha Gominak recommends 60-80 ng/mL for good health. You would probably enjoy the YouTube videos by Gominak and Holick.

For the others mentioned - Google is our friend.

[BlackSpinner]

There are reports of being cured of sleep apnea by:

Weight loss (better metabolic health!)
Moving ones vitamin D3 levels to between 60 and 80
Many of the methods contained within Traditional Chinese Medicine
Eucapnic Breathing
Various kinds of exercise

CPAP has usability issues which have many giving up on it and the rest reporting less than stellar results long term.

If you really do want to get better I think you need to broaden your view well past CPAP.

Only point one and two have any valid data behind them. The rest are wishful thinking - speaking as someone who studied TCM and has done yoga since the early 70's.

[Todzo]

Its simple math:

Before tonsillectomy: 95th percentile was consistently in the 14s to 15s

After tonsillectomy full recovery: 95th percentile dropped into the low to mid 11s

If I go off all klonopin (a potent depressant and sedative), my experience has been a point drop for each mg of klonopin. Im on four mg klonopin, therefore I should expect a drop of three to four points, which would bring me down to low 8s or the 7s. Lets be conservative and say, the low 8s after discontinuing ALL klonopin.

Then lose forty pounds and get down to 200 lbs again. Im down to the low 7s now.

Then have deviated nasal septum corrective surgery and sinus surgery to reduce NAR. I figure another drop of a point. Down to low 6s

Then I have bariatric surgery and lose the remaining fat and get down to 165, my ideal weight. That drops my pressure needs down to under 4.

Eric

IT's great to see the glass half full......but......Come on...get real fella.

I believe there is hope!!

I am off the drugs and enjoying life better without them.

Compliments of another researcher:

There are multiple meta-analyses and studies [1-12] examining the literally thousands of studies regarding whether exercise is as effective a treatment as drugs, evidence-based psychotherapies, or both. All of these meta analyses conclude that exercise is as effective on its own as drugs and psychotherapy. Based on the fact that psychotherapeutic drugs are known to negatively alter a patient's brain shape and metabolism, while exercise has been evidenced to do the exact opposite, it appears that this is now an ethical issue. How can it be ethical to encourage drug prescription when another treatment is known to be as effective, without the side-effects on metabolism and brain shape?


[1] Russell-Mayhew, S., McVey, G., Bardick, A., & Ireland, A. (January 01, 2012). Mental
health, wellness, and childhood overweight/obesity. Journal of Obesity, 2012.

[2]  Stathopoulou, G., Powers, M. B., Berry, A. C., Smits, J. A. J., & Otto, M. W. (May 01,
2006). Exercise Interventions for Mental  Health: A Quantitative and Qualitative
Review.Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice, 13, 2, 179-193.

[3] Fremont, J., & Craighead, L. W. (April 01, 1987). Aerobic exercise and cognitive
therapy in the treatment of dysphoric moods. Cognitive Therapy and Research, 11,
2, 241-251

[4] Broocks, A., Bandelow, B., Pekrun, G., George, A., Meyer, T., Bartmann, U.,
Hillmer-vogel, U., ... R�ther, E. (May 01, 1998). Comparison of aerobic exercise,
clomipramine, and placebo in the treatment of panic disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry, 155, 5.)

[5]   Doyne, E. J., Ossip-Klein, D. J., & Bowman, E. D. (October 01, 1987). Running versus
weight lifting in the treatment of depression. Journal of Consulting and Clinical
Psychology, 55, 748-54.

[6] Veale, D., Le, F. K., Pantelis, C., de, S. V., Mann, A., & Sargeant, A. (January 01, 1992).
Aerobic exercise in the adjunctive treatment of depression: a randomized controlled
trial. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, 85, 9, 541-4.

[7] Richardson, C. R., Faulkner, G., McDevitt, J., Skrinar, G. S., Hutchinson, D. S., & Piette,
J. D. (January 01, 2005). Integrating physical activity into mental health services for
persons with serious mental illness. Psychiatric Services (washington, D.c.), 56, 3,
324-31.

[8] Dishman, R. K., & Buckworth, J. (January 01, 1996). Increasing physical activity: a
quantitative synthesis. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 28, 6,
706-19.

[9] Slootmaker, S. M., Chinapaw, M. J. M., Schuit, A. J., Seidell, J. C., & Van, M. W. (July
29, 2009). Feasibility and Effectiveness of Online Physical Activity Advice Based on
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[10] Burton, N. W., Pakenham, K. I., & Brown, W. J. (January 01, 2010). Are psychologists
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[11] Perraton, L. G., Kumar, S., & Machotka, Z. (June 01, 2010). Exercise parameters in the
treatment of clinical depression: a systematic review of randomized controlled   
trials.Journal of Evaluation in Clinical Practice, 16, 3, 597-604.

[12] Rethorst, C. D., & Trivedi, M. H. (January 01, 2013). Evidence-based
recommendations for the prescription of exercise for major depressive disorder.
Journal of Psychiatric Practice, 19, 3, 204-12.

[Todzo]

There are reports of being cured of sleep apnea by:

Weight loss (better metabolic health!)
Moving ones vitamin D3 levels to between 60 and 80
Many of the methods contained within Traditional Chinese Medicine
Eucapnic Breathing
Various kinds of exercise

CPAP has usability issues which have many giving up on it and the rest reporting less than stellar results long term.

If you really do want to get better I think you need to broaden your view well past CPAP.

Only point one and two have any valid data behind them. The rest are wishful thinking - speaking as someone who studied TCM and has done yoga since the early 70's.

Yet the testimonies exist.

What happens if you try them all at once?