After a month - - Gurgle Gurgle - Any ideas?

[dllfo]

A month at home...no problems...no water.

Been up here in Anacortes, WA a week and had water 3 times.

At home, Sacramento, CA I always had my Respironics Auto Bipap and my wife's Auto Bipap on the head board. No water in the first month I used it.

Up here, I have had water roughly 3 out of 7 nights. Until last night I had both of the units slightly above our heads. My wife has not had any water problem. I have also used the 6 ft and the 10 ft hoses. Covered and uncovered.

Last night I put my unit on the floor, took the 10ft hose up above my head and looped it back down. NO WATER'S GONNA GET ME BY GOLLY!!! Wrong! At about 6:30 this morning I woke to water trickling down my cheek and the now familiar popping sound. We are both using distilled water.

I am NOT over filling the heated humidifier. I double checked it before last night. I am using the Swift Mask. Heating temp is at 2 I think, but I set it a long time ago. Whatever the factory recommended. I am running an IPAP setting of 4/25 again. But I could probably drop it back down. My Encore Pro indicates the highest pressure used was about 16 over the last week or two. I did have congestion one night where I did not feel I was getting ANY air once or twice. Those are the times you find yourself standing next to the bed gasping for air.

So I wonder if the moisture is condensation from me? Is my breath moisture laden enough to cause this over 6-9 hours?

My heated air had to travel UP 4 ft, then down 2 feet to me. I measured it with a tape.

What else is there? I have not ran the Encore Pro yet, that is, downloaded the data. I don't think we have a setting for "drowning" in our software.

Any ideas? Suggestions?

[Goofproof]

It's simple physics, lower the water temp or heat the hose. I'll bet you and the wife use different masks. A nasel mask will run cooler, so it has the most rainout.

If the moisture is comming from your lung, check for a heartbeat every now and again. All week I/ve gone with the HH dry, no problems with that, one less thing to do. Jim

[dllfo]

Jim...we both use the Mirage Swift mask.

We have the same machines with the same settings. Weird.

One of the things puzzling me is why I am getting it up here and not at home. I am looking out at a large body of water....our home is a dry area. MAYBE that effected it? I am just guessing.

I just ran my compliance for the last month and I reset my compliance time from four hours to six hours. I was 85% compliant. I had 3 nights that the machine wasn't really in use, my lack of sleep was due to my back/hip problems. I am VERY pleased with it, and my wife's compliance is excellent too. She now sleeps all night, every night. She used to wake up at various times of the night thinking it was time to get up. She would be wide awake, but now she sleeps through. We are both VERY happy with the machines and this forum that has made it possible.

I told Apria and my insurance people I got much more from this forum than I ever did any Apria techs. Not sure they wanted to hear that, but it is the truth. I also told Apria Mgt they should assign a middle mgr to monitor this website every day. Not all the time, but they could learn so much from us.

Thanks Jim...back to the drawing board......Dave

[Guest]

So I wonder if the moisture is condensation from me? Is my breath moisture laden enough to cause this over 6-9 hours?

I'm convinced that different people's breath have different levels of humidity and tempurature and that can cause one person to have rainout where another will not. As a test, why don't you and your wife both put on your masks while NOT hooked up to the CPAP and see how much condensation each mask has after a few minutes of breathing into them. I'm betting that your mask will have more.

[TerryB]

The ability of the air to hold more water from the humidifier depends on the humidity of the incoming air. When the relative humidity reaches 100% because of falling temperature or rising moisture, out comes the rain. Dry home and soggy Washington would have very different starting relative humidities.

TerryB

[dllfo]

4:24am
4th straight night of rain out. Last night. I will call Apria today, see what their techs say. (Pause for laughter to die down)

It could be that I have a bay full of water about 70 ft in front of me. Cooler nights...I will check the heat setting too. It is not impossible for their HH to go bad. My wife has not had rain out one time. Identical equipment.

When I don't get the rainout...this system is great. With it, unuseable.

By the way, I answered nature's call at about 3:23am. I emptied the hose and mask at that time. There WAS water in it. At 4:08am it woke me with the popping sound. And water trickled down my cheek.

I know I am NOT the first with this. The concept is good, just need to get the kinks out.

[TerryB]

dllfo,
You might try a home made "cozy" for the hose, go to the cheapest source like WalMart or Doller store and get a bundle of tube socks and cot the toe out to create a sleeve for the hose. Need to keep the temperature up to keep the humidity in vapor form not liquid.

Your wife may be getting by with a lower heat setting on the humidifier?


TerryB

[dllfo]

TerryB,
Thanks...already did it. When my wife got HER machine, my "Award Winning
Ugliest Argyle" hose warmer was history. She made both of us a nice felt
cover.

Actually it warms to hose and keeps down the racket it makes at night.

Thanks though...I am still trying to figure this out.

I will be calling apria in a couple of minutes, see what they say....and I want to check my HH settings again.

As I said earlier....to recap:

1. I have used a 6 and 10 ft hose here. both covered.
2. I have set the Bipap on the floor and about level with my body.
3. I have routed the hose from my body level to the floor in a loop,
then up over my head and down.
4. I have routed the hose from the floor up to me. Last two nights.
5. I have routed the hose horizontally from the machine to me.
6. the HH setting is the same as my wifes. Uh...a 3? whatever the
suggested factory setting is. Regardless, she has the same setting.
7. My lung capacity is about 150% of hers, and my Peak Flow Meter
indicates (on a GOOD day) I put out about 550 to her 325-350.
My pulmonologist said this is not unusual. So YES, I do put more air
in my hose. Nothing I can do about that one.
8. The heat is turned off at night. Fidalgo Bay is about 70 feet away.
A large body of water...humidity I guess.
9. We both use the Mirage Swift. I use large, she uses small.
10. We both wash our masks everyday and hang them to dry. I also shake
mine to be sure NO moisture in it when I put it on.
11. I sleep on my back, with a pillow under my knees (lower back pain), she
sleeps on her back and side.
12. She is sweet and precious while I am an old poop.

that sums it up...anything else....please? A heated hose is all that is left.

We can't buy heated hoses in the USA can we? I think Austrailia is the source right now??? thanks again....Dave

PS I read about rain-out while in "dry country" and wondered about it, now that I have seen it first hand I can see why people HAVE to change something. I do have the Aura something or other mask, I could try it. I also have a used Comfortlite 2 on the way. Too late to help me here.
I may try a nap today, without the HH.

[bikeopener]

dilfo, I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if it might be the humidity in WA. Sacramento is a dryer climate. If the humidity level is higher, and the temperature is cooler, I wonder if that creates more humidity in the mask/hose. Try turning the humidifier down to see what happens. I don't have any rain out problems with my mask until winter hits here in Wyoming, then when It's cool in the room, I get rain out. If I keep the temp above 64 degrees - no rain out. Ah... the wonders of low humidity.

Mike

[NightHawkeye]

Dave, you can save yourself a lot of grief by using the heated hose. Of course, you won't need it when you get back to Sacramento . . . Maybe you could just use it when you travel.

Just my thoughts . . .

Regards,
Bill

[Wulfman]

dilfo, I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if it might be the humidity in WA. Sacramento is a dryer climate. If the humidity level is higher, and the temperature is cooler, I wonder if that creates more humidity in the mask/hose. Try turning the humidifier down to see what happens. I don't have any rain out problems with my mask until winter hits here in Wyoming, then when It's cool in the room, I get rain out. If I keep the temp above 64 degrees - no rain out. Ah... the wonders of low humidity.

Mike

Mike,

I have sent you a PM.

Den

[rested gal]

The surest solution of all (imho) to prevent rainout is to replace the regular main air hose with the Aussie heated hose -- "Sleepzone heated cpap tube".

http://www.sleepzone.com.au/

$89 U.S. dollars (you buy an adapter - Radio Shack is where most of us have gotten the adapter) or $109 U.S. dollars for heated hose with an adapter included. Either price includes free shipping to the U.S. from Australia. No prescription needed to order the heated hose. The $159 price you'll see as the first price mentioned on the heated cpap tube page is in Australian dollars.

LINKS to Aussie heated hose - to prevent rainout

There is at least one online store in the U.S. that now carries the Sleepzone heated hose: cpapusa.com

Personally, I'd just order direct from Sleepzone itself in Australia. dllfo, since you prefer using a 10 foot hose, perhaps you could email Don Fischer at Sleepzone to see if they could make a 10 foot heated hose for you. The Fischers are very nice people.

[Goofproof]

I think you have hit on the problem, number 12. When she goes out. change HH's with her.

Or you may need to sleep with a couple of concrete blocks on your chest, to get your volume down to your wife's size.

I'll go for the heated hose for travel, or using the hh as passover. I actually left the water out of mine for 3 nights just to see what it's like, it wasn't too bad, but last night started back with water in the passover mode. Jim

[dllfo]

I just got off the phone with the head RT for Sacramento's Apria. A great guy when you can catch up with him. I actually asked to speak to an RT or the manager of the Sacramento Facility (actually, I think I asked to speak to the CEO of Apria) and I got this gentleman.

Mike...moisture contents, etc. I was told to turn my unit to a "1" from a "3".
summertime is a time to lower the numbers since it is warmer outside. this is a general rule of thumb. After I reminded him I am staring at the Canadian border he remembered and said "rule of thumb". So I set mine to a "1" for tonight. There IS a relationship between summer/winter and heat settings.

Another thing, IF I understood him correctly, was that we lose heat in the hoses at the (Rule of Thumb again) rate of ten degrees every 6 inches to a foot., so if the temp was 160 degrees and a 6 foot hose...about body temp. when we get it. He said my 10 ft hose would complicate things. I mentioned the heated hose mentioned by the lovely RG and he said he had seen them in hospital wards. I explained our Austrailian connection and he seemed surprised. I gave him this website address and told him EVERY DME in the world should assign someone to read this website. He said he would pull a couple guys out of the class they are teaching to put them on it. Kidding.
But he was interested, especially about the opinions concerning Apria and the poor level of service we get. I HOPE he joins us, even once a week. Both sides would benefit. Now he knows about OUR heated hose. He has been in the industry around 30 years.

Mr. Mike...I PMd you part of the info. Set it on a "1" and try it. I will. I will also order the heated hose. I started to do that awhile back and got sidetracked.

Miss RG...I am ordering one. But I will not receive it until I get back home.
Thanks for the link.

Goofy...ooops, Goofproof, you are correct, except she offered to switch with me. But she needs her sleep to put up with me. Concrete Blocks? I felt like I had them on my chest earlier today...about 4am. I sleep with my nitro next to the bed. Sometimes I use it, sometimes it goes away, but I can't take too many chances. This Apria gentleman did suggest taking the HH out of the equation, see if I could sleep with it that way. OR he said it could be a bad unit and will have to be replaced.

I asked him about having to lay the power supply flat on a surface. He said, as far as he knows, that is to keep from pulling the wires out of the units.
There were a couple more things of interest, I can't remember them at the moment....thought I had written it all down. Sorry about that.

He did concur with the consensus on here that I should NOT try to combine a nebulizer with the sleep apnea equipment. OK.

OH YEAH...software at Apria. An RT told me the other day they don't use Encore Pro at Apria. He was both right and wrong. Mgt has encore pro, the other people have Fox Pro, as I recall. Mgt has both. He also said not all the techs even have a computer there. Seems odd, in this day and age.

More later and thank you so much for the suggestions...I should have asked before. I haven't slept all night in 4 nights now.

RG...do you think, or know, if the Radio Shack power supply is as good as the one from the "factory"?? Debating on which way to order it.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): hose, DME, Power

[Snoozin' Bluezzz]

The reommended one from Radio Shack is huge, a serious brick. Those folks are pretty good folks so I would go with one they provide and then you have recourse to one place if necessary.

David