Here's my Camp battery set up

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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CapnLoki
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:32 am

billbolton wrote:
CapnLoki wrote:FIrst, you want an inverter capacity substantially higher capacity than the expected load to handle startups and unexpected events.
You don't need a 150W inverter to do that!
Maybe not, but as I said its hard to find one smaller that's well made. And, I would add, that the OP posted his setup with a 400 Watt inverter. And John shows (on his in depth battery backup thread) several inverters 150 Watts and up. And, ResMed recommends at least 150 Watts. And most importantly, I happen to have several 150 Watt inverters to test.
billbolton wrote:
CapnLoki wrote:I frequently "pop" the breaker on the inverters using load that don't seem anywhere near the limit
This discussion here is about powering xPAP kit from inverters, not your personal general use of DC power for a variety of maritime purposes.
So you're discounting 20 years experience with inverters because they were on a boat??? Oh My!
billbolton wrote:The bottom line is that inverters run most efficiently when the inverter capacity is reasonably well matched to the load. If you run an current technology inverter a with load which is very significantly under its capacity (for example a ~20W peak load on a 150W capacity inverter), the inverter will not be operating in it most efficent zone which is pretty much the only thing you demonstrated with your inverter measurements
I agree with you completely. Except that you're wrong. In the real world (and we are talking "real world" here, not some theoretical, book learned world?) its very hard to match the exact requirements. An xPAP will use well over 20 Watts at startup or when wide open. And pumps have a wide range of loads depending on settings, and, as noted, they turn on and off at every breath. The problem here is that inverter manufacturers play a numbers game of claiming 90% efficiency at a particular load, but they usually don't publish the efficiency over the full range. And we are limited to choices that the average consumer would have, at prices under the DC alternative ($90 for Resmed, $25 for PRS1).
billbolton wrote:Making sweeping claims about the efficency of current inverter technology based on a flawed testing and analysis process is just plain silly
Maybe, but I was making specific claims, based on reasonable testing and sound analysis and long experience.

If you have some real alternative to suggest, I'd love to hear it? Please, if you actual have a 20 Watt (or smaller) high efficiency inverter I would buy it in a heartbeat, not for my pump, but for the rechargeable toothbrush and a host of other small devices.

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FEF
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by FEF » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:54 am

I have the 12v Resperonics machine. But if I had a 24v rig, I'd buy this and try it out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industry-Grade- ... 3ccf1c5bf7

My motorhome has 2 12 batteries. I might be tempted to do some electronics trickery to whip up a 24v solution.

I just did some digging and found this PDF
http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... lo_eng.pdf

I'm impressed that the manufacturer has spent a fair bit of time working out the portability issues. It's safe to assume that any of these options will allow the most use from an auto battery. I'd go with any of the recommend solutions, or something similar.

Funny thing... When I was fitted with the rig, I asked about camping. He just shook his head... I'm glad we're talking about it at all.

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khauser
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by khauser » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:08 am

JohnBFisher wrote:
Tech Guy wrote:This is a rather silly question, and sorry skimmed the post and not sure what equipment you are running. Why not go directly to the battery and omit the inverter all together? My PR system one uses a 60 watt 12 volt supply rated at 5 amps. The amperage isn't the issue, but guessing you are trying to use the factory power supply into the inverter, then into the 12 volt battery. As long as the battery isn't charging, 12 volts is 12 volts. You could put a $10 voltage regulator set at 12 volts instead of maybe the 13 or 14 volt output from the battery to guaranty no voltage fluctuations. Mine uses a 3.5 mm jack that can be purchased at radio shack for a few dollars. Haven't tested the polarity or power output from the supply, but make sure if you go this route the polarity is correct for positve and ground. As long as the factory input voltage is within spec, should work fine. Seems a bit redundant to attach an inverter then your unit's power supply unless you are concerned about stabilized dc input voltage. These additional accessories just pull more juice from the battery and probably not necessary.
Not all xPAP devices can go directly from battery to xPAP device. Resmed units require 24vdc - not the standard 12vdc. So, you need a converter of some sort. For about $90 or so you can get a converter to convert from 12vdc to 24vdc. While that will be more efficient, the $90 for the converter is a bit of a sticker shock. Phillips Respironics went with 12vdc power input a LONG time ago for the very reason you suggest. It's easier for everyone.
For a non-portable (more accurately, less portable) solution, why not use 2 12v batteries in series? Now you have a 24vdc supply with no loss from converters or inverters.

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JohnBFisher
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by JohnBFisher » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:46 am

khauser wrote:... For a non-portable (more accurately, less portable) solution, why not use 2 12v batteries in series? Now you have a 24vdc supply with no loss from converters or inverters. ...
Even then Resmed requires the converter be used. The reason is that as a battery is used (or two in this case) then the voltage level tends to flucuate. This converter keeps the output power steady, in spite of changes to the input power. This is not an unusual, nor unreasonable stance. The electronics should be shielded from lousy power by having a converter and/or inverter in place to clean up the power BEFORE it goes to the electronics.
The ResMed DC Converter for S9 machines enables S9 Series CPAP Machines to be powered using a 12V or 24V power source such as those found in a car, boat, RV, or other battery.

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billbolton
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by billbolton » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:54 pm

CapnLoki wrote:And pumps have a wide range of loads depending on settings, and, as noted, they turn on and off at every breath.
<sigh> Clearly, rational discussion is just not possible.

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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by JohnBFisher » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:06 pm

CapnLoki, while I don't discount your experience with inverters, my claim of the efficiency was based on years of working at helping major corporations be certain they have the correct power for their computing systems in their data centers. While you can buy really cheap inverters that would provide power for your xPAP device and everything else, I do not recommend it. Size the inverter for the load. Size the battery for the load. Do that and the battery lasts longer and the risk to electronics is greatly reduced. I've helped too many companies put their computing systems back together after deciding to go cheap on some component. The downtime they incur ALWAYS costs more than doing it right the first time. Same would be true with our xPAP devices. Don't know about you, but my ASV unit costs a LOT more than a simple lamp. So, I put a little time and funds into the effort to be certain I can sleep well, without overpaying (either for the battery or need to replace electronics).

Just saying.

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Dive Apnea
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by Dive Apnea » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:29 pm

So, I just did a test run, didn't realize how loud the fan on the inverter is! Got a tent camp trip coming up, I went camping last summer, and used a friends inverter set up, don't remember the fan being so loud his inverter. Anyone have a quieter inverter recommendation? The one I bought is from Harbor Freight.
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Bama Rambler
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by Bama Rambler » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:01 pm

If you're serious about it you should look at Xantrex inverters. They're among the best made.

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CapnLoki
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Re: Here's my Camp battery set up

Post by CapnLoki » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:45 pm

Dive Apnea wrote:So, I just did a test run, didn't realize how loud the fan on the inverter is! Got a tent camp trip coming up, I went camping last summer, and used a friends inverter set up, don't remember the fan being so loud his inverter. Anyone have a quieter inverter recommendation? The one I bought is from Harbor Freight.
Yes, I've been annoyed at the noise of the newer inverters which usually have a fan - I still tend to use an older fanless 150 watt Xantrex to power the TV and other small gadgets that can't use 12V. Also, the fan is a sign that whatever the spec sheet says, it won't run at 90% while powering a CPAP at about 10 watts. My advice is still to get the 24V converter for the S9. Or, if you want a second machine for camping, get an older PRS1 550 which can run on 12V.

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