Bacteria Filter--Will air Flow be Reduced ?

[Stetson]

I just got a Resmed S9. It says that a bacteria filter should not be used with the slim line hose or the heated hose because it will reduce the air flow. Although you can purchase Hyperalogenic filters for the unit. The text in the clinician's guide does not tell you if a bacteria filter is the same as a Hyperalogenic filter. As far as anything in-line it doesn't even make mention of one. The Hyperalogenic filter goes on the intake of the pump unit and replaces the non-woven intake filter. I am getting the Hyperalogenic filter next month and tell you because I can run my own reports I should see something after the first night.

[timbalionguy]

A 'hypoallergenic filter' is a fine filter for the input side of your machine. It is a very fine filter, but probably not as fine as a bacterial filter.

The theory of a bacterial filter is to keep any bacteria (or fungi) that are in the water tank, from reaching the patient. There has been some debate here as to whether bacteria can in fact be 'blown down the hose', but many feel (including me) that they can.

BTW, distilled water is by definition pure water, and therefore sterile. If there were any bacteria in it, it would no longer be pure water. In the commercial product we get in stores, there are undoubtedly some material that leached out of the plastic the bottle is made of, as well as a few random bacteria. Even if these bacteria survive, they cannot thrive in distilled water, as there is no 'food' in distiled water to allow them to grow. Although commercial water may not be pure enough for a physicist, it is certainly pure enough for our use.

Even if you leave water in the humidifier, daily draining, rinsing and changing the water will prevent most bacterial of fungi growth. Since I have started doing this, my humidifier chambers have been holding up a lot better, and rarely require anything more than a rinse to stay clean.

[M.D.Hosehead]

Thanks for posting your take on this.

Any kind of a restriction in a hose carrying air is going to cause some 'pressure drop', due to the effort expended squeezing through the restriction. This lost pressure energy is converted into an infinitesimal amount of heat. The smaller the restriction, the more the pressure drop across it (and the more heat produced).

Is it possible the the heat is enough to prevent condensation?

My suspicion is that very little of what these filters stop is actually bacteria. I bet the gray buildup you are seeing on the machine side of the filter is mostly very fine room dust, pollen, etc.

I believe that. I wasn't really worried about bacteria. Since the same bacteria are in the air I breathe all day, they and I have a harmonious co-existence. But regarding dust and pollen, I can say that I look forward to using the xpap, because those filters provide 100% allergy relief. The ultrafine intake filter from Respironics doesn't do nearly as well.

The openings in a bacterial filter have to be really small. Thus, they will cause some pressure drop. Thus, the recommendation not to use them at pressures of 7 cm or less. (You can always raise the pressure to compensate.) In the case of an APAP or a Bilevel machine, the filter restricts the flow in the other direction as well (which the machine uses to sense events, or control IPAP/EPAP pressure). This is why it can affect therapy with these machines.

That is really my main concern, and it's frustrating that I can't find any definitive information about the effect the filters have on the therapy and/or the data. Nothing on cpap.com and nothing on Respironics' website. So far, it's just guesswork.

[GumbyCT]

DannyPh you never did say what kind of allergies you are dealing with. It could be where you keep your machine too.

As mentioned if you don't have the fine white filter in your machine, get one. That white filter works wonders for me. I am allergic to dust but just as soon as I mask up I feel relief.

Now my DME amazed me one time while here I showed him my white filter right along side a new filter. He didn't want me to order white filters. You can see the color difference easily this way. He tried to tell me my filter was still good and that a fine filter was not needed.

Also check this thread for a recent discussion on room air filters if you are interested.
viewtopic/t57534/Room-Air-Filter.html

[jlk]

Don't know if bacteria can be sent down hose or not, but have used one with my old S-8 Escape and it did get dark matter on it after about one month. Probably crap that passed thru pre-filter? I didn't notice any pressure loss at 7.2 cm. john

[LoQ]

BTW, distilled water is by definition pure water, and therefore sterile.

I doubt it's sterile. That's a different process than distillation, isn't it? Distillation is about removing chemicals and minerals; sterilization is about destroying pathogens. Water can be distilled, sterile, neither, or both. What you buy in the store is likely distilled but not sterile.

[M.D.Hosehead]

1. You can sterilize even swamp water by boiling until every living thing in it is cooked. It still could be filthy, even dangerous. In addition to the dead microorganisms, it might contain agricultural chemicals, urine, feces, products of decomposing wildlife, heavy metals, dioxin, radioactive isotopes and on and on, but you won't be able to culture any bacteria from it--it's sterile.

2. Originally, distillation began with boiling water first, then letting the vapor condense back into water. If sterile precautions are maintained throughout the process, that water should be sterile, too. I doubt the distilled water you buy in the store is prepared this way, but it could be nearly sterile (unless typhoid Mary has the job of screwing the lids on)!

3. Sterile or not, once you put the water in the tank and blow room air on it, whatever bacteria, yeasts, spores, virus particles, animal dander, pollen, insect feces, decomposing fibers from clothing and furnishings, etc. that are in your room air are added to the water tank. They aren't pathogenic, because you breathe them all the time and have antibodies to them. Also some of your own bacteria, as well as your white blood cells, eat them. But the water in the humidifier tank certainly isn't sterile.

[Stetson]

These are the specs for the Hypo-Allergenic filter.

Standard (ASMB 160)
88% at 7 micron

Hypo-allergenic (Air Safety Electret100 – electrostatic filter)
89.8% at 0.5 micron, bacterial efficiency of 99.54%.

[LinkC]

I think you are confusing "distilled" and "de-ionized" (also called "de-mineralized").

Distillation, by definition, is boiling the water and condensing the steam. The product is sterile.

De-ionization uses ion-exchange resins which bind with the mineral ions in the water. The resulting salts are filtered out. This is a room-temperature process, so the product is not sterilized.

However, neither will produce scale, so unless you are drinking out of your tank, both are fine for CPAP.

[jlk]

I am considering purchasing some Bacteria Filters for my Cpap and I was wondering if the Air Flow to the cpap might be reduced when using the Bacteria Filters. The Manufacturer that I am considering purchasing them from States that the Air Flow will not be Affected but They will say anything to make a Sell ! I thought thay might be worth a try with winter coming on and myself suffering from Allergies.

The one's I used didn't restrict any airflow that I noticed. You will need to change them when they get dark on the input side, mine did at aout 30 days. For about $5 you may get some allergy relief, I say go for it. john

[DannyPh]

I am still confused as to whether the Bacterial Filters will work with my M Series Machine. Gumby stated that they need to be Installed before the Humidifier. Cardinal Health States---""NOTE: THESE FILTERS ARE NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH HUMIDIFIED MACHINES UNLESS THEY CAN BE ATTACHED BEFORE THE HUMIDIFIER." Attaching the Filter before the Humidifier on the M series would be Impossible I think. Only Place to attach the Bacterial filter would be where the Hose attaches to the machine which would be after the air passes over the Humidifier. I think I desperately need the Bacterialfilters with my Allergies but I also need the Humidified air with my Machine. Any Input from Bacterial Filter users will be appreciated before I purchase the Filters. Thank you.

[M.D.Hosehead]

I am still confused as to whether the Bacterial Filters will work with my M Series Machine.

Any Input from Bacterial Filter users will be appreciated before I purchase the Filters. Thank you.

Of course it's confusing because there are contradicting opinions. I suggest you go to the web page:

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/Respir ... -pack.html


Click on the "features" "important tips" and "learning center" tabs; be sure to read all the way to the bottom of each tab. Look at all the illustrations.

Then decide for yourself whether to believe Respironics' claim that they have designed a product intended for attachment to the outtake tube after the humidifier, that does not decrease the pressure in the mask. If, after you've read the material, you still have doubts, call cpap.com and ask them.

As you have read above, several here use them as advertised with good results.

[smallwoodst]

BTW, distilled water is by definition pure water, and therefore sterile

BEWARE.

Yes Distiled water is pure at some time and if kept in a serile "closed" system. Your humidifier is neither closed nor sterile
DI water will promote bacteria far more that tap water.

FACT:
Bacteria cannot grow without water. Many bacteria are quickly killed by dry conditions whereas others can tolerate dry conditions for months; bacterial spores can survive dry conditions for years. Water activity (AW) is used as an indicator of the availability of water for bacterial growth. Distilled water has an AW of 1. Addition of solute it slows down most baterial growth bt rerucing the AW of water
Distiled water has had all TDS removed from the water, but this does not mean that it is bacteria free. In fact, TDS can sometimes help to prevent bacteria growth in dental unit water lines. When all TDS have been removed from the water it is actually easier for bacteria to grow and to eventually form biofilm. This does not mean that the answer is to always use tap water, especially in areas with very hard water. Hard water can damage equipment and for mineral deposits on the walls of water container and damage heated areas . When combating the growth of bacteria and biofilm in your water tank the best solution is to use distilled water in combination with a regular biological cleaning of tank of biofilm.
Be sure to always read the full label of your water treatment product to ensure that the levels of HPC bacteria in your system are being properly controlled.

We are advised to use distilled water in the humidifier to prevent mineral damage.
it is not due to bacteria

[enghelp]

Bacteria Filters are designed to go after the Humidifier. Also, they do increase pressure drop, however the machine can sense this and compinsate. (cool software). It is not recommended below 7 because the pressure is so low it is hard for the machine to sense the increase in pressure drop and compinsate accordingly. Long story short, if you are concerned about bacteria from your humidifier than feel free to use one it will not affect your therapy, if you are not concerned about baceria don't use one.

[chunkyfrog]

The boiling point of water is 100 degrees Celsius, 210°F (at normal atmospheric pressure--sea level, I believe)
Lower the pressure, the boiling point goes down, so it may be possible to distill water without harming bacteria.