According to the user's manual for the S8 Autoset Vantage, there is an accessory module required in order to use a smart card (what ResMed calls a "ResScan card"). Does anyone have an S8 Vantage without a card socket on it? Or does that part automatically come when you buy the machine.
My sleep doctor prescribed an APAP machine today and when I expressed a preference for ResMed he sent me to a ResMed-specialist DME here in town that he has worked with a lot. Unfortunately, they only have the older (clunky) Autostart Spirit machines which are the APAP in the old S7 series. In fact, the Autostart Spirit (APAP) and S7 Elite (CPAP) are the only machines they provide with data-collection capabiity although they stock the cheaper no-data-collection S8-series machines. That tells me they like to use the ResLink gadget to do their data collection.
Anyway, I told them I wanted an S8 or nothing so they're checking on how long it will take to get me one. For all I know they don't have the correct software version and card reader for the S8 smart card (or maybe the do have it, like I said I don't know). I just want to make sure if they order me an S8 Autoset Vantage that it comes with the smart card, both to do the data collection my doctor ordered and in case I want to use it after the doctor is through monitoring.
Smart Card Module for S8 Autoset Vantage?
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Brent Hutto
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The S7 *Autoset* Spirit & S7 Elite both have the data collection capability but use serial cable to download unless you have the expensive ResLink module (ResMed say they only sell the ResLink to professionals).
The S8 range have an optional replaceable panel at the rear that allows a ResMed data card to be inserted. This data card gathers the data that is *also* held on the S8 (For users, Remstars only hold the data on their card). Of the S8 models the Escape doesn't hold detail data, just compliance data.
ResMed also sell a datacard reader for approx $34 (IIRC) and this can be accessed by the AutoScan software.
They do actually have a serial connector module for the S8s but for the price one is far better off with the datacard & card reader (USB model).
The AutoScan software is a delight to use & install & set up. None of the agony usually experienced by Respironics software set up.
Different people here will have different opinions on the effectiveness of the AutoScan data from the ResMed machines but in my humble opinion it is the easiest & best to work with and follow. I won't go into debates on how much more accurate it might be, that debate seems to bring the worst out in some regulars here & also seems to attract a disproportinate number of emotional phantom/guest posters
Cheers
DSM
The S8 range have an optional replaceable panel at the rear that allows a ResMed data card to be inserted. This data card gathers the data that is *also* held on the S8 (For users, Remstars only hold the data on their card). Of the S8 models the Escape doesn't hold detail data, just compliance data.
ResMed also sell a datacard reader for approx $34 (IIRC) and this can be accessed by the AutoScan software.
They do actually have a serial connector module for the S8s but for the price one is far better off with the datacard & card reader (USB model).
The AutoScan software is a delight to use & install & set up. None of the agony usually experienced by Respironics software set up.
Different people here will have different opinions on the effectiveness of the AutoScan data from the ResMed machines but in my humble opinion it is the easiest & best to work with and follow. I won't go into debates on how much more accurate it might be, that debate seems to bring the worst out in some regulars here & also seems to attract a disproportinate number of emotional phantom/guest posters
Cheers
DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)
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Brent Hutto
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- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
dsm,
So in all likelihood my DME is just serial downloading data from their S7 Elites and Autoset Spirits. If so, they will correctly assume it's a major PITA to sell me an S8 because they'll have to either get me a serial module (which I don't particularly want) or get me an S8 card module and get themselves a card reader plus maybe a software upgrade.
Unless I can find a DME (who works with my doctor) who has converted to the S8 series, my best bet may be to rent the Autoset Spirit from them for a month to get the 30 days of data that the doctor requested and then buy my own S8 Autoset Vantage + card module + card reader + software. Well, darn. I need to go visit these guys in person and talk to their techie who does all the downloading and reporting to see if we can work out an accomodation. I just don't want to get stuck with a clunky obsolete machine at the end of the process.
[EDIT] Let me add a couple of things...
This particular DME specializes in gathering efficacy data and reporting it back to the sleep doctor. They always use ResMed equipment so I suspect they do in fact have those ResLink modules. I wonder if the card that goes in a ResLink module on an S7 is the same as the card that goes in the card module of the S8? If so, they may simply need to upgrade to 5.7 of the Autoscan software to accomodate my request for the S8.
I also wanted to comment on dsm's puzzlement about why the Autoscan software is typically disparaged on this forum. I'm not saying this to criticize or belittle anyone's preferences but simply as an observation based on a couple of decades of participating in Internet discussions. It all comes down to the MyEncore software. People on this forum seem to really, really like Derek's software. I think part of that is because it works well and Derek has responded to what people need. But part of it is because the idea of free software written by someone known to the group fits perfectly with the ethos or culture here.
The Platonic ideal arond here would be a person who figured out a way to diagnose their own OSA, build their own APAP machine, write their own monitoring software and publish their own book about their experiences after a few years of self-monitoring and self-treatment. All without any reliance on doctors, DME's or $150 clinical software apps. Of course that's an exaggeration but I think MyEncore and by association the RemStar Auto are sort of the hometown hero and something like Silverlining or Autoscan would have to be double-plus-great in order not to suffer by comparison.
So in all likelihood my DME is just serial downloading data from their S7 Elites and Autoset Spirits. If so, they will correctly assume it's a major PITA to sell me an S8 because they'll have to either get me a serial module (which I don't particularly want) or get me an S8 card module and get themselves a card reader plus maybe a software upgrade.
Unless I can find a DME (who works with my doctor) who has converted to the S8 series, my best bet may be to rent the Autoset Spirit from them for a month to get the 30 days of data that the doctor requested and then buy my own S8 Autoset Vantage + card module + card reader + software. Well, darn. I need to go visit these guys in person and talk to their techie who does all the downloading and reporting to see if we can work out an accomodation. I just don't want to get stuck with a clunky obsolete machine at the end of the process.
[EDIT] Let me add a couple of things...
This particular DME specializes in gathering efficacy data and reporting it back to the sleep doctor. They always use ResMed equipment so I suspect they do in fact have those ResLink modules. I wonder if the card that goes in a ResLink module on an S7 is the same as the card that goes in the card module of the S8? If so, they may simply need to upgrade to 5.7 of the Autoscan software to accomodate my request for the S8.
I also wanted to comment on dsm's puzzlement about why the Autoscan software is typically disparaged on this forum. I'm not saying this to criticize or belittle anyone's preferences but simply as an observation based on a couple of decades of participating in Internet discussions. It all comes down to the MyEncore software. People on this forum seem to really, really like Derek's software. I think part of that is because it works well and Derek has responded to what people need. But part of it is because the idea of free software written by someone known to the group fits perfectly with the ethos or culture here.
The Platonic ideal arond here would be a person who figured out a way to diagnose their own OSA, build their own APAP machine, write their own monitoring software and publish their own book about their experiences after a few years of self-monitoring and self-treatment. All without any reliance on doctors, DME's or $150 clinical software apps. Of course that's an exaggeration but I think MyEncore and by association the RemStar Auto are sort of the hometown hero and something like Silverlining or Autoscan would have to be double-plus-great in order not to suffer by comparison.
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DSM-guest
Re the data cards - the following link shows an S8 style data card plsu you can see the small plastic panel it slips into. There is a blank panel and a panel with a serial DB9 socket.
. I haven't seen datacards for the S7 range - I assumed they didn't have them until the S8 but I did see in writeups on the ResLink module, that is has a datacard reader built in - maybe it is the same card ?.
http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/res ... index2.htm
As mentioned, the ResMeds store the data internally as well as on the card when inserted. The S7 style units (and I am assuming the S8s) (except the S7 lightweight model and the S8 Escape model) store the data internally & leave it there even after a download, these machines 'roll' the data, that is when the internal data store fills up the next record goes over the oldest
Good luck.
DSM
. I haven't seen datacards for the S7 range - I assumed they didn't have them until the S8 but I did see in writeups on the ResLink module, that is has a datacard reader built in - maybe it is the same card ?.
http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/res ... index2.htm
As mentioned, the ResMeds store the data internally as well as on the card when inserted. The S7 style units (and I am assuming the S8s) (except the S7 lightweight model and the S8 Escape model) store the data internally & leave it there even after a download, these machines 'roll' the data, that is when the internal data store fills up the next record goes over the oldest
Good luck.
DSM
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Brent Hutto
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
Wow, excellent info DSM. I looked through all of your S7/S8 photos and if I had any question at all about settling for an S7 Autoset Spirit, seeing them side by side convinces me. Even for very, very occasional airline travel there's gotta be a night and day difference between toting the little tiny S8 vs. an S7 (or Remstar for that matter).
I figure I've had sleep apnea for more than a decade and it's taken over two months from initial sleep-clinic referral to this point. If it takes another week or two to get the machine I want that's a drop in the bucket, although ideally I'd like to get started immediately.
It sure looks like the same smart card as the old ResLink. I'll bet the only difference in the version of Autoscan that supports the newer machines, if that. Thanks for your help and advice.
I figure I've had sleep apnea for more than a decade and it's taken over two months from initial sleep-clinic referral to this point. If it takes another week or two to get the machine I want that's a drop in the bucket, although ideally I'd like to get started immediately.
It sure looks like the same smart card as the old ResLink. I'll bet the only difference in the version of Autoscan that supports the newer machines, if that. Thanks for your help and advice.
Brent Hutto,
I have the older S7 AutoSet Spirit and have carried it into airplanes as a carry on and it has travel with me on the subway train from the Chicago airport to downtown and walk 15 blocks with it to the hotel. The older S7 Reslink uses a Smart Media that was more of a standard at the time and it is different from the newer S8 Smart card. take care
http://www.smartmediaflash.com/
I have the older S7 AutoSet Spirit and have carried it into airplanes as a carry on and it has travel with me on the subway train from the Chicago airport to downtown and walk 15 blocks with it to the hotel. The older S7 Reslink uses a Smart Media that was more of a standard at the time and it is different from the newer S8 Smart card. take care
http://www.smartmediaflash.com/
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rested gal
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True, the ethos or culture here is one of getting plenty of whatever kind of data a person feels will help him/her get the best treatment possible.Brent Hutto wrote:I also wanted to comment on dsm's puzzlement about why the Autoscan software is typically disparaged on this forum. I'm not saying this to criticize or belittle anyone's preferences but simply as an observation based on a couple of decades of participating in Internet discussions. It all comes down to the MyEncore software. People on this forum seem to really, really like Derek's software. I think part of that is because it works well and Derek has responded to what people need. But part of it is because the idea of free software written by someone known to the group fits perfectly with the ethos or culture here.
Actually, I've not read much disparagement of the Autoscan software on this forum except from.... me.
I've used all three major brands autopaps and their software. With tweaks here and there, I've received equally effective treatment from every machine I've used.
When I used ResMed's S7 Spirit for a month or more (as well as the VPAP III and a VPAP III ST for several weeks each, just for the heck of trying bi-level machines) the Autoscan software had the least useful graphs of all, imho. A graph that shows a single hypopnea as a horizontal blue line extending from the point it occurred all the way across the hour in which it occurred whether that limited flow actually lasted a few seconds or the full hour is not a very helpful display to me.
Usually when I've knocked the Autoscan software it has been with the statement, "imho", or "to me." A side aggravation with that software when using the download cable with the ResMed machines was that it was continually trying to access the floppy drive. The intermittent grinding sound throughout each session while using Autoscan to view the data was annoying. Of course with a ResScan card that would be different, but the cable download with the S7's did have that drawback noisy racket.
I prefer the Silverlining software for the PB 420E autopap which is my regular machine. I especially like the "96 hour" detailed graph. I also like downloading with a cable which I keep plugged in (a phone extension cord) all the time between machine and computer. Very handy, no hassle. No card reader. I don't even have to carry the little machine to computer or vice versa.
My second choice software is Encore Pro. I've never installed or used MyEncore. I know a lot of people do like the enhanced data Derek's excellent add-on program provides. I've just been quite content with looking at my results through Encore Pro alone when I used the REMstar Auto for over a year. At least for me, MyEncore has never been a factor in which machine's software I liked or didn't like.
As for popularity of certain machines... I think the biggest reason for the Respironics REMstar Auto with C-Flex being so popular on this board is C-Flex -- moreso even than the availability of Derek's supplemental program. C-flex really does provide additional comfort for many, many people in a treatment that already has a lot of uncomfortable issues to deal with. Not everyone who tries C-Flex likes it, but most who try it do.
Since I don't really have to have exhalation relief at the pressures my autopap delivers most of the time (usually 9, 10, 11), I don't really need C-Flex. My choice of the 420E autopap as my primary treatment machine is based mostly on my preference for two things - small size of the machine and the Silverlining software.
If I needed exhalation relief AND wanted autopap operation, there's only one machine that can give both those things at the same time - Respironics REMstar Auto with C-Flex. I used that machine for about a year.
The S8 machines are neat. I got to try an S8 Elite long enough to see how EPR felt. Even nicer than C-Flex (imho ) as EPR lasts throughout the entire exhalation. Too bad that feature isn't available in auto mode with the S8 Vantage.
I'd rate the reasons in this order as to why the Respironics machines are chosen so often by readers of this forum:
1. C-Flex as an exhalation relief that can be used even in autopap mode. Four modes of operation for the REMstar Auto/C-Flex vs no exhalation relief when the S8 Vantage is operated in APAP mode, and no exhalation relief in either mode for PB's 420E autopap.
2. Derek's "MyEncore" to use along with Encore Pro.
3. The fact that:
a. a cheap source for the card reader was found
b. the Encore Pro software was available as a free (mistakenly, most likely) download for quite some time. People interested in monitoring their own treatment chose Respironics' machines to take advantage of that, saving $200 on the usual software package price.
I agree with RG re the popularity of C-flex & the RemStar AUTO
Back in the days when eBay allowed xPAPs to be sold, any C-flex machine almost always commanded a premium price - that told me that users right across the board like it., not just here.
In my early use of my own RemStar AUTO with cflex (by far my fav AUTO, and my wifes fav (although I almost like the S7 Spirit as much)) I came to the conclusion that c-flex was contributing to my having aerophagia. Since then I have seen many similar posts. I once went as far as to describe c-flex as a sales gimmick but today I can say that I believe I was quite wrong. I began using cflex again but at lower settings and it was very helpful.
It was a fact that my aerophagia was more noticable when I used a cflex machine and basically disappeared (for me) when I went BiLevel.
Re the software Autoscan vs Encore Pro, I believe RG & I have different points of view. I do agree that the fine data in the Respironics printouts can be more reassuring to some but I really don't believe that many of us analyse the info to the that degree, most of us want to see the trends & patterns & what AutoScan shows is detailed enough for me.
I posted this set of data (actually my own) here & I find the detail more than adequate.
http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/aut ... index.html
If one looks at image 10, I can't believe anyone would want any more finite detail, min-by-min than what it shows ?
I don't want to get into a debate on this as an issue as this topic has been done over many times here. I did want to explain why I feel happy with the AutoScan software.
I am still evaluating Silverlining but already believe it will be excellent based on RG's comments on it in the past.
Cheers
DSM
Back in the days when eBay allowed xPAPs to be sold, any C-flex machine almost always commanded a premium price - that told me that users right across the board like it., not just here.
In my early use of my own RemStar AUTO with cflex (by far my fav AUTO, and my wifes fav (although I almost like the S7 Spirit as much)) I came to the conclusion that c-flex was contributing to my having aerophagia. Since then I have seen many similar posts. I once went as far as to describe c-flex as a sales gimmick but today I can say that I believe I was quite wrong. I began using cflex again but at lower settings and it was very helpful.
It was a fact that my aerophagia was more noticable when I used a cflex machine and basically disappeared (for me) when I went BiLevel.
Re the software Autoscan vs Encore Pro, I believe RG & I have different points of view. I do agree that the fine data in the Respironics printouts can be more reassuring to some but I really don't believe that many of us analyse the info to the that degree, most of us want to see the trends & patterns & what AutoScan shows is detailed enough for me.
I posted this set of data (actually my own) here & I find the detail more than adequate.
http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/aut ... index.html
If one looks at image 10, I can't believe anyone would want any more finite detail, min-by-min than what it shows ?
I don't want to get into a debate on this as an issue as this topic has been done over many times here. I did want to explain why I feel happy with the AutoScan software.
I am still evaluating Silverlining but already believe it will be excellent based on RG's comments on it in the past.
Cheers
DSM
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)
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Brent Hutto
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- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
Aha, that's what I suspected. I thought I remembered seeing a picture of the ResLink card somewhere along the way. I recalled it being more of a conventional smart card. The little stick that the S8 uses is very different.john5757 wrote:The older S7 Reslink uses a Smart Media that was more of a standard at the time and it is different from the newer S8 Smart card. take care
http://www.smartmediaflash.com/
So it looks like I'll be working uphill to get what I need from the DME who is set up for the S7 Spirit/Elite plus Reslink. They aren't going to have an S8 card reader or V5.7 of Autoscan yet and they may not want to equip themselves for that just to service one customer. It's going to be a challenge. Well, shoot.
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Brent Hutto
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
RE: Autoscan Software
Well obviously I can't comment on the various software products because I haven't used them. But I just wanted to say that RG is not the only source for my conclusion that Autoscan is less popular than the other packages. The majority of times I've seen software discussed, Autoscan is mentioned as less desirable than the Respironics (and Derek) alternatives.
So when you think about it, free software with a free addon that works with a machine with C-flex...there's no way Autoscan wouldn't come up on the short end of that comparison on average. That said, from what I've seen I'm with DSM. The data presentation may be less complete but it still looks plenty usable, so maybe not "the best" software but easily "good enough". My choice is the Resmed machine rather than the Respironics so I'm just lucky they have a "good enough" software application to go with it.
So when you think about it, free software with a free addon that works with a machine with C-flex...there's no way Autoscan wouldn't come up on the short end of that comparison on average. That said, from what I've seen I'm with DSM. The data presentation may be less complete but it still looks plenty usable, so maybe not "the best" software but easily "good enough". My choice is the Resmed machine rather than the Respironics so I'm just lucky they have a "good enough" software application to go with it.
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Brent Hutto
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- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
Not that everyone is holding their breath to hear what machine I end up with, but...
I just talked to the head guy at the DME. He can get me an S8 Vantage, I'll pay the difference between its price and a regular CPAP like a Remstar Pro or S8 Escape, $200-odd. The doctor's order was for them to loan me an APAP for a month to gather data and then sell me a CPAP machine to use after that first month so they want to get paid for having to supply an APAP instead of something cheaper. Fair enough. They should have it ready for me this afternoon, worst case tomorrow morning.
He said the S8 Vantage that they had does come with the card module already installed and they can read the data from it no problem. And FWIW, the DME guy said in his opinion APAP ought to be the usual standard of care for most patients but the majority of the time people end up with CPAP.
I just talked to the head guy at the DME. He can get me an S8 Vantage, I'll pay the difference between its price and a regular CPAP like a Remstar Pro or S8 Escape, $200-odd. The doctor's order was for them to loan me an APAP for a month to gather data and then sell me a CPAP machine to use after that first month so they want to get paid for having to supply an APAP instead of something cheaper. Fair enough. They should have it ready for me this afternoon, worst case tomorrow morning.
He said the S8 Vantage that they had does come with the card module already installed and they can read the data from it no problem. And FWIW, the DME guy said in his opinion APAP ought to be the usual standard of care for most patients but the majority of the time people end up with CPAP.
S8
Brent,
Good luck. Also I am really keen to hear your feedback on the S8.
When I did my trials of comparing my RemStar AUTO to an S7 Spirit, I observed the following ...
1) The Remstar AUTO was very quiet - no whines - a very big plus
2) The Remstar integrated H/H worked very well for me - a plus
3) The Remstar cflex seemed to be causing aerophagia but I could turn it off
4) The Remstar Software was a PITB to install & set up & get data from - a minus
5) The ResMed AUTO did whine & my wife was disturbed by it
6) The ResMed 2i H/H was ok but fiddly to use - a minus (3i is much better)
7) The ResMed seemed to be very much softer in transition from inhale to exhale compared to the Remtar, to me it seemed as if Resmed had included some kind of relief here but I have not seen anything backing that up. Also I was not experiencing the same aerophagia as with Remstar cflex.
8 ) The ResMed software was easy to install & use & read (very easy)
Because of my wife's reaction to the Spirit's noise - I reverted to the RemStar which had become my mainstay machine until I obtained my PB330.
I am interested as to what you think of the transition from Inhale to Exhale on the S8 when in AUTO mode and also if you get to try the EPR feature (which turns the S8 Vantage into a mini BiLevel)
Also the noise - what does it sound like ?
Cheers
DSM
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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): resmed, cflex, auto, aerophagia
Good luck. Also I am really keen to hear your feedback on the S8.
When I did my trials of comparing my RemStar AUTO to an S7 Spirit, I observed the following ...
1) The Remstar AUTO was very quiet - no whines - a very big plus
2) The Remstar integrated H/H worked very well for me - a plus
3) The Remstar cflex seemed to be causing aerophagia but I could turn it off
4) The Remstar Software was a PITB to install & set up & get data from - a minus
5) The ResMed AUTO did whine & my wife was disturbed by it
6) The ResMed 2i H/H was ok but fiddly to use - a minus (3i is much better)
7) The ResMed seemed to be very much softer in transition from inhale to exhale compared to the Remtar, to me it seemed as if Resmed had included some kind of relief here but I have not seen anything backing that up. Also I was not experiencing the same aerophagia as with Remstar cflex.
8 ) The ResMed software was easy to install & use & read (very easy)
Because of my wife's reaction to the Spirit's noise - I reverted to the RemStar which had become my mainstay machine until I obtained my PB330.
I am interested as to what you think of the transition from Inhale to Exhale on the S8 when in AUTO mode and also if you get to try the EPR feature (which turns the S8 Vantage into a mini BiLevel)
Also the noise - what does it sound like ?
Cheers
DSM
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): resmed, cflex, auto, aerophagia
xPAP and Quattro std mask (plus a pad-a-cheek anti-leak strap)
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Brent Hutto
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm
dsm,
I'll give a full report after using it tonight. I tried it on at the DME office and breathed with it for a while on 7cm (my prescribed range is 7-12cm) while sitting in a chair. I am very sensitive to any kind of high-pitched whining sound sort of like your wife ...sensitive like her, I mean...not sensitive to whining like her...I've never heard her whine...and anyway I could not detect a bit of a whine in that setting. It may be a whole 'nother thing in a quiet bedroom tonight.
He showed me how to clean and fill the 3i humidifier and it's about as slickly implemented as a humidifier might be. Pops right off to go for cleaning in the sink, no little hoses or couplers to fiddle with, opens wide for easy filling in place. And the APAP+humidifier thing runs off one plain old power cord, no wall wart. They seem to have gotten the "design" details on this one as right as rain. My initial mask is an Ultra Mirage II, size "Large", which seems as comfortable as anything as uncomfortable as that could be (if you know what I mean).
For all the warnings I've received abou the "evil DME" issue these folks couldn't have been any more helpful. I seem to be lucky that way, my doctors aren't always quacks and my first DME encounter was professional and stress-free. Kind of like the sportswriter years ago who said that Bob Gibson was overrated--the other teams just never hit worth a damn on the days he pitched.
I'll give a full report after using it tonight. I tried it on at the DME office and breathed with it for a while on 7cm (my prescribed range is 7-12cm) while sitting in a chair. I am very sensitive to any kind of high-pitched whining sound sort of like your wife ...sensitive like her, I mean...not sensitive to whining like her...I've never heard her whine...and anyway I could not detect a bit of a whine in that setting. It may be a whole 'nother thing in a quiet bedroom tonight.
He showed me how to clean and fill the 3i humidifier and it's about as slickly implemented as a humidifier might be. Pops right off to go for cleaning in the sink, no little hoses or couplers to fiddle with, opens wide for easy filling in place. And the APAP+humidifier thing runs off one plain old power cord, no wall wart. They seem to have gotten the "design" details on this one as right as rain. My initial mask is an Ultra Mirage II, size "Large", which seems as comfortable as anything as uncomfortable as that could be (if you know what I mean).
For all the warnings I've received abou the "evil DME" issue these folks couldn't have been any more helpful. I seem to be lucky that way, my doctors aren't always quacks and my first DME encounter was professional and stress-free. Kind of like the sportswriter years ago who said that Bob Gibson was overrated--the other teams just never hit worth a damn on the days he pitched.
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rested gal
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Brent Hutto
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- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:55 pm