Sleep architecture & REM Sleep...

[TmjTerri]

I asked this in another post that was titled for John Fisher..but since alot may not read that post I was wondering if any of you knew how long we should be in REM sleep every night and what does it mean when ALL of my studies show that my sleep architecture was abnormal? Actually what does abnormal sleep architecture mean? I really need to educate myself.. sheesh. Thanks so much!! TmjTerri

[Jay Aitchsee]

Sleep architecture refers to the pattern of your sleep stages. Sometimes presented as a hypnogram. See here for more
http://helpguide.org/life/sleeping.htm

Jay

[Mary Z]

I don't think there is a specific amount of REM that's normal. Probably 100% of us with OSA have abnormal sleep architecture.

[TmjTerri]

Is your sleep architecture supposed to be abnormal even when you are on a cpap? Thanks for your reply!!

[Jay Aitchsee]

CPAP should help to normalize your sleep architecture by reducing the number of arousals from apneas. Arousals cause your sleep to become fragmented and disrupt the normal pattern or cycles.

Jay

[Pugsy]

Is your sleep architecture supposed to be abnormal even when you are on a cpap?

No, hopefully being on the machine will help normalize it. Well as normal as it can be under the circumstances. Remember also that other things besides sleep apnea can mess with sleep architecture.

During my sleep study it was found that I was having many, many more events when I hit REM stage sleep and it took me longer than normal to get to REM because of the few arousals from the few events I had in non REM sleep. Then if I got into REM the events came fast and furious and I woke up from them...then I had to start the sleep cycle all over again. I had very little REM sleep because of this. Also very little of the sleep stage prior to REM. Nasty cycle to have.

Our bodies need the normal cycles to get the restorative powers of sleep. People that sleep 10 hours but don't go through the normal cycles adequately for whatever reason simply don't get the cycles they need and can feel just as crappy as someone who only gets 4 or 5 hours of sleep. We need quality and not just quantity. Though the perfect solution would be good quantity of excellent quality sleep. For me I have finally discovered that 6 to 7 hours of good quality sleep doesn't quite get me to where I want. When I get 7 1/2 to 8 hours of the good quality...I finally feel my good numbers.

[JohnBFisher]

CPAP should help to normalize your sleep architecture by reducing the number of arousals from apneas. Arousals cause your sleep to become fragmented and disrupt the normal pattern or cycles.

Jay

While CPAP helps "normalize" the sleep architecture, as I've noted in another post, as we get older our sleep becomes more and more disturbed. There are lots of reasons for this. As we age, we often find that we need to head to the bathroom more frequently. As we age, we often find that those aches and twinges we have during the day also occur at night. As we age, we tend to put on more weight, which can disturb normal breathing. As we age, we often find that obstructive sleep apnea increases - disturbing our sleep. All of these things are normal. While CPAP helps address the obstructive sleep apnea, it does not address all the other issues.

So, the sleep architecture normal for a five year old child is often not attainable for a health fifty year old adult. But that same healthy fifty year old adult may have better sleep architecture than most other adults of his age, who may not be as healthy.

In this case "normal" is very relative.

That being said, the OP noted during sleep studies that she did not attain N3 or REM sleep. This is abnormal. You normally attain SOME during a sleep study. Of course --- who sleeps normally during a sleep study??!! So, take all this with a lick of salt!

[ameriken]

As we age, we often find that those aches and twinges we have during the day also occur at night.

Would anyone think the opposite is true as well for age....that at night we have aches and twinges that we don''t have during the day? I've noticed over the past 8 years my hip joints (and lately some other joints but mainly the hips) would hurt later in the night, and the pain would dissipate throughout the morning. The pain has gotten worse as the years slide by. I wasn't sure if this was part of the apnea or part of aging.

In fact, it's difficult trying to decide which of any of our symptoms can be attributed to age and which are attributed to apnea.

[Lizistired]

Sleep architecture refers to the pattern of your sleep stages. Sometimes presented as a hypnogram. See here for more
http://helpguide.org/life/sleeping.htm

Jay

Thanks Jay, That's a great link. I just sent it to my brother, the snorer that needs 10 hours of sleep a night! I was telling him about my Zeo tonight in reference to Dad and he expressed an intrest in trying it. It might improve our relationship! I'm thinking you just can't take this stuff too seriously.

[M.D.Hosehead]

Here's one way to think of it:

Conventionally, a "normal" resting pulse is said to be 72 and blood pressure is 120/80. But most of the time, most people, at rest, do not have a pulse of 72 and BP of 120/80. Both these numbers vary a lot due to innumerable factors that influence our physiology from minute to minute.

Conventionally, REM sleep "normally" comprises 20-25% of a night's sleep, occurring in 3-4 discrete episodes, separated by NREM. However, most people don't actually have that sleep architecture; no one has it every night. A large variance in sleep architecture is found in healthy people. A couple of hypnograms on this page are illustrative.

http://sciblogs.co.nz/sleep-on-it/2011/ ... ed-part-1/

Increased number of arousals/awakenings, increased shifts of sleep stage, decreased slow-wave sleep and decreased REM are all correlated with the perception of poor sleep. Nevertheless, many people who have "abnormal" sleep architecture feel fine and function well.

For those with poor sleep, treatment of sleep apnea, by decreasing arousals/awakenings, can, but doesn't always, improve sleep architecture and therefore quality.

[TmjTerri]

I wanted to thank each one of you for explaining this. Now I can understand it much better then I did before I asked. Boy, I have so much to learn and it can feel overwhelming but I am determined to learn as much as I can so I can make sure my sleep apnea gets treated properly. I have let this go for far too many years but even when I first started feeling crappy I never thought my sleep was as bad as it is now. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just go back and correct things when they first pop up? Wishful thinking on my part I guess.. Back in 1996 when I had my first sleep study I NEVER knew there was so much to know about sleep. Boy was I wrong. Thank you all for helping me understand things in a much better way. Learning all of this will help me take care of myself better and I need to do that. Every single day I feel so crappy like I never slept. I can get 10 hours of sleep and literally feel like I only took a 30 minute nap. Not good! So I am determined to get as close to perfect sleep as I can.