Tongue on roof of mouth...please explain

[Dark Matter]

When I first started to use cpap therapy I was a mouth breather so I bought a chin strap and used for about a week. I would of been better off strapping a set of pantyhose around my head. Nasal mask or pillows and I haven't had a problem since that first week. Tongue sits very nicely right on the roof of my mouth and my understanding that it is something our bodies want to do anyways. I think we forget because of sleep apnea

[xenablue]

Even with my touch suctioned to the roof of my mouth, a chinstrap (for me) is still necessary to stop my mouth falling open during the night. I tried loosening the chinstrap a little each night and then going without, but every time I'd wake up with desert mouth. For me it IS a neccessity.

Cheers,
xena

[gulfpearl]

My bipap pressure is 23, I use nasal pillows & keep my tongue at the roof of my mouth without significant leaks.

[So Well]

You need to condition the marvelous brain to keep the tongue pressing against the roof of the mouth the whole night.

But that's impossible Ms. Rosacer.

An unconscious brain can't be trained to do anything.

QED

Sir Rockalot

Rooster is the only other person who has regularly posted that thought here. Rooster has not posted for some months. Are you Rooster in disguise???

(I do agree with you or both of you, whatever the case may be. You can't train a "sleeping tongue" to stay in a position that it does not normally hold. I do believe you can work on the positioning of your head and pillow to facilitate a naturally closed mouth which leads to tongue on mouth roof.)

[Janknitz]

You can experiment while awake. With mask and machine on, Put your tongue on the roof of your mouth and open your lips. If done correctly there should be little or no leakage of air pressure out of your mouth. It's kind of like how you can open your mouth in a swimming pool without water pouring directly into your lungs.

The spot I place my tongue (just the tip) is that little ridge of palate behind the front teeth--it's about 1 cm back from the teeth themselves.

[-SWS]

Well, the anecdotes about whether this tongue-sealing method works are genuinely perplexing IMHO. There are many posters here, like myself, who simply cannot get this method to work. By contrast there many others who swear this technique has worked for them. I personally believe an unconscious mind can adapt to stimuli. Reference Dr. Dement's own anecdote about gradually learning to sleep near the railroad tracks. But put me down as yet another reader in this thread who does not think an unconscious mind can be trained to perform highly-coordinated neuromuscular tasks, like holding the tongue in a specific position---especially during REM atonia as suggested by SU.

But I am wondering if SOME of us have just the right craniofacial characteristics to set up the tongue's position, during wake, such that the pressure/muscle dynamics of slide three are more likely to occur: http://www.acurest.com.au/truefit-custo ... face-mask/

In any event, quite a few posters over the years claim to have succesfully adapted their mouth position to avoid mouth leaks. I wish I were one of them. Hats off to those people who can make that technique work.

[So Well]

Let me add that I only mouthbreathe for a short time during the night and seem to always wake up when this happens. I use a FFM and it keeps my AHI very low and spread through the night with no clusters of events. Many nights there is no mouthbreathing.

My experience leads me to believe that I mouthbreathe when my posture and position vis-a-vis the mattress and pillow changes into an undesirable sleep position. I just reposition myself and seem to have no more mouthbreathing during the night.

I never mouthbreathe when sleeping on my stomach; infrequently mouthbreathe when sidesleeping; and am more likely to mouthbreathe on my back.

So, at least for me, body/neck/head positioning seems to determine jaw position which determines tongue position and proclivity to mouthbreathe or not.

I learned this from Rooster's posts and believe you can find many posts where he mentions it.

[rocklin]

Rooster has not posted for some months. Are you Rooster in disguise???

(I do agree with you or both of you, whatever the case may be.)

So . . . I am—or am not—a rooster in disguise?

But what ever the case you do agree with both of us?

Now you have me (or is it both of us?) thoroughly confused.



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Actually, I was being a mite bit sarcastic.

Up to three months ago, I kept falling out of bed.

But I somehow learned to "unlearn" turning on my right side when sleeping.

___________________________________________________________________________________________


IT'S NOT THAT FUNNY, SO WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING?

Our bed is especially high, with double mattresses (so my princess doesn't feel her pea), and you practically have to do a running start and the Fosbury Flop to get into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id4W6VA0uLc

When you do turn too hard in that bed and inadvertently end up rolling into empty space, it can range from majorly disorienting to being flat-out terrifying.

To awaken from a falling dream, and realize that, you are now awake, and indeed plunging through darkened space!

And then, inevitably, the unforgettable "WHAMFFF TTTHHHUUUDDD!!!" jolting impact of a hard landing, (which sounds all the world like wet laundry hitting the floor) and the exquisite, unforgettable "pain of defeat" (as they used to say on ABC's skiing sports intro) as you bones, joints and organs absorb the blow.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


But somehow, (through sheer desire?) I have trained my body not to turn and sleep on its right side.

Also—and I mastered this years ago—when I'm in a nightmare, I can look down at my feet, see that they are planted on the ground, and that somehow cues me to the fact that I am in a dream.

I continue dreaming, but without the sickening intensity, I can really enjoy the dream . . . as a dream.

Unless it's a VD, but that's a whole nother story, fortunately very few of those these days.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Still the point remains, and it's a beaut:

If you can train your body not to turn, your tongue to maintain a position, and your dreams to lose their "I'm actually living this now" perspective (can one be "trained" to do the opposite, i.e. realize that one is dreaming when the body is awake and walking in the real world?), then, well, I think that the possibility that one can "train" themselves away from SDB seems less fantastic, yes?

Now ask yourself:

1. Am I attracted to this thought and wish to explore it further?

or

2. Upset that I may have wasted so much time on CPAP, so I figure it's better to dismiss this whole thing as an outlier, a fantasy, and return to the warm, welcoming vagina that is my sleep mask.

Yeowza.

Btw, I hate this new, tiny print CPAPtalk has switched to, it's like watch marching ants. Ugh. Please change it back.

[Perrybucsdad]

Rocklin... do you do anything besides create Troll posts? Adding you to my ignore list.

[ems]

Rocklin... I wouldn't dream of putting you on my ignore list... you're just too damn funny. Now, I can't say I agree with everything you post, but your posts most always give me a laugh... and what could be better than a good laugh first thing in the morning???

[M.D.Hosehead]

Rocklin, So Well,

Do you, however many of you, still wet your bed?

[-SWS]

M.D.Hosehead, are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting? It sounds as if you're speculating that people for whom this technique works might have LEARNED necessary muscle control----in much the same way that we learn not to wet the bed as children.

I thought the latter was more a function of nephrogenesis and ADH than plasticity and muscle control. I'm ammenable to your theory...

[jmaulz]

I tried to force my tongue to the roof of my mouth, but it wasn't natural. I've read that this is true for many people who rest the tongue behind the bottom teeth, not the top. No single right way for everyone.

[rested gal]

I tried to force my tongue to the roof of my mouth, but it wasn't natural. I've read that this is true for many people who rest the tongue behind the bottom teeth, not the top. No single right way for everyone.

I think you're absolutely right, jmaulz... "No single right way for everyone." Depends on so many things, not the least of which is the geometry of the inside of an individual's mouth, tongue...so many things.

Here is an interesting old thread from another apnea board from long ago. Yes, the "-SWS" and "rested gal" who posted there are the same two cpaptalkers posting here on cpaptalk.

The quote below is from snork1's post on talkaboutsleep, back in July 2004:
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... 3465#23465

snork1 wrote:
I came across a rare character at my new place of work... someone who got their CPAP and that was pretty much it...Well ok they just figure resealing their nose mask every time they move and all the various mask leaks to be part of the adventure.

What REALLY blew me away was asking about mouth leaks with the nose mask. He said "No problem!" 2 small words that I would give my left....something....for, to be able to say. (oh yah, already did that mtn biking.. )

So after I got through falling down and worshipping this miracle, I asked if he had any tricks or hints about stopping mouth leaking.

His story.....

He, being a fellow engineer, read everything on the internet when he was diagnosed with OSA and was expecting the worse. He read about mouth leaks, realized lips were not going to stay shut and then pushed it one step further and figured trying to seal with the tongue against the roof of mouth/ back of teeth was also bogus. He figured out he could close off his THROAT with the BACK of his tongue and still keep the therapy flowing. He says he can sleep with his mouth hanging open once he got the hang of this technique.

I am NOT saying this will work for everyone, but after experimenting with it last night, I would say it certainly has promise for some people. (Yah, probably not me....sigh...) Put on your nose interface with your mouth wide open, and you can fiddle with the technique lying down or even sitting up. (this is VERY similar to the rice lump in the back technique....but doesn't need any special postioning)

I still used my lip strap, with the mouth guard that now has a silicone oversize "button" lashed to its front with monofilament(for between the teeth and gums) and I still woke up once with a parched mouth (even with heated hose etc), BUT it was THE best night I have had yet.

Of course anyone following my saga knows I have yet to have two good nights in a row. Nevertheless, many of the tricks I stumble across seem to work for others better than me.

The closing off the throat/BACK of mouth with back of tongue may be common knowledge for many people, but I figure if putting this slightly different spin on it (apoligies to lump under back similar technique) jogs my brain, maybe it will help someone else at least.

Good luck
Good sleep
Good night

Sealing with the back of the tongue at the entrance to the throat worked fairly well for me, but not as consistently as simple slapping a piece of tape across my mouth. Shoving the tongue back to dam off the entrance to the throat was also what I had success with when I made a boil'n'bite mouthguard "DIY" device. Most people who made a "DIY" fashioned it to keep the tongue up against the roof of the mouth. But roof of mouth tongue position doesn't get 'er done for me. Back of the tongue widened like a dam, does.

Back to what jmaulz wisely said: "No single right way for everyone."

Oh, and about the "DIY" thingy some, including me, have tried:

Topic started by frequenseeker Dec 01 2004 subject: mouth leak solution, cheap DIY oral appliance
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... php?t=4750

Picture of snork1's creation:
viewtopic.php?t=3265

Pictures of a one piece design by freelans:
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... 71242#7124

[M.D.Hosehead]

M.D.Hosehead, are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting? It sounds as if you're speculating that people for whom this technique works might have LEARNED necessary muscle control----in much the same way that we learn not to wet the bed as children.

I thought the latter was more a function of nephrogenesis and ADH than plasticity and muscle control. I'm ammenable to your theory...

OK, OK, ya got me. Your post gave serious consideration to the tongue conundrum, and I was being flip. Obviously, nervous system maturity is necessary for urinary continence. But I suppose learning is also involved; wetting yourself isn't a pleasant experience. (I regret all the M & M's I probably wasted on my kids; they likely would have become continent without them.)

I haven't been able to make the tongue thing work for me, either, yet there's no reason to doubt the veracity of those who have posted that they have.

Here's a serious reply to your statement:

put me down as yet another reader in this thread who does not think an unconscious mind can be trained

Asleep does not = unconscious. Someone in a coma or under a general anesthetic probably can't adapt or be trained. Sleep, in contrast, is a neurological activity, with with a functioning brain and cycling EEG pattern. Sleeping animals constantly sample the environment, and not only for danger. As the railroad example shows, people learn to selectively ignore environmental stimuli. And selectively attend to stimuli, for example, mothers become attuned to their babies' sounds, then unlearn that sensitivity when it's no longer relevant.

It's puzzling why only some can accomplish the tongue trick. REM paralysis isn't total; respiration and eye muscles remain active. Cough, gag and swallow reflexes, too, and those involve the tongue. Perhaps, as you suggest, individual anatomy is important. Possible, people learn to notice the buildup of pressure in the oropharynx (selective attention to stimuli) and to respond with suction or tongue placement. Or maybe no one has come up with a good didactic method of training. I haven't been able to teach myself digeridoo, either.