Encore Pro

[biggziff]

Why don't you post with your real account or does posting how to illegally download copyright protected software scare you (it should)?

Not to be contentious here . . ., OK, maybe a little, but . . .
I seem to recall that everyone here is in violation of the software licensing terms they agreed to when they installed Encore Pro, which states that the software is for use only by medical professionals! Judging from posts in this forum, not too many here fit that description.

So, does this mean software police are going to swoop down on all of us? I think that about as likely as my getting a ticket today for not coming to an absolute complete stop at a stop sign.

In reality, Respironics freely gave the software away on their website for a period of months, long after they'd been notified of the problem. A suitable analogy might be a store with a broken soft drink machine that gives away free soft drinks. The store owner knows it's broken but fixing it is not his highest priority. He kinda likes the fact that customers come into his store to get a soft drink because they usually buy other stuff, plus they come to his store rather than the one next door because they're thirsty and know they can get a free soft drink.

In other words, I think Respironics still likes us and still wants us as customers. I could be wrong I suppose. They could be a bunch of snotty nose legal IP addicts . . ., but I doubt it.

Regards,
Bill

[Guest]

How about the online store that sells;

The free software for $99

The $30.80 reader for $139.00

or

Both for $199.00

Think they would like to see the software freely downloaded?

Watch out 2Factors!

[LandKurt]

Not to be contentious here . . ., OK, maybe a little, but . . .

Just to play devil's advocate let me present an analogy (intellectual property right arguments are nothing without a lot of analogies).

Just because a restaurant allows free refills of coffee or soda doesn't mean they are giving it away. It's not OK to walk in with your own cup and get the first one for free. Free refills are a feature of the original purchase.


Similarly Respironics made the software available as a free upgrade. Presumably this was intended as a free upgrade for paid customers. They relied on an honor system since the upgrade didn't require you to use the original disk. But using an honor system doesn't prove they intended for unpaid customers to grab a copy. Neither does their inaction in changing the system after being notified about it. There final removal of the access to it would indicate the reverse.

I do wonder why they bother to charge for it though. All the sleep centers and DMEs can't be that large a market, and how many CPAP users even know about the software. It seems like they might as well just give it away to encourage the DMEs to push their machines. Maybe it's just the stigma of free software. A lot of organizations just can't take something serious if they don't have to pay for it.

[NightHawkeye]

. . . Maybe it's just the stigma of free software. A lot of organizations just can't take something serious if they don't have to pay for it.

I agree with you, LandKurt. I suspect that there are legal issues with it as well.

We're all big boys and girls and I truly believe each of us knows the difference between right and wrong. You can try to justify it all you want to, but it's still wrong. Period.

I think I understand how you arrived at your position, Bigziff, but what about the issue of the licensing agreement which effectively forbids all of us here from using the software unless we happen to be employed in the healthcare industry?

Regards,
Bill

[snorzalot]

I'm guessing that Respironics never imagined patients would be interested enough in their own therapy to purchase a smart card featured PAP system, a smart card and a smart card reader. Additionally, based on my assumption, I'm guessing they never bothered to "lock" down their software for one or two reasons:

1. They figured only DMEs, doctors or sleep labs would download the software (see above statments)

2. They figured the software licensing agreement (based on Bill's discussion earlier in this thread that states it's for medical professionals ONLY) would protect their software from illegal downloads.

I think it was VERY irresponsible for Respironics to place their software online totally unprotected for months! If we treated the software as "prescription only" like we treat the PAP machines, then it would be similar to the vendor taking a PAP patient to court claiming they ate all my prescription pain killers I left lying beside my swimming pool that doesn't have a fence around it (known as an attractive nuisance in many states). Now, am I trying to claim that it's acceptable for people to download the software forever free of charge and claim "rights" to Respironics intellectual property?--NO!

However, again I'm disappointed that Respironics has NOT listed on their Web site along with the new login/password requirement a LARGE BOLD FACE STATEMENT claiming that past site visitors downloading their software are in copyright violation (blah blah blah) and MUST REMOVE the software unless they are a medical professional.

Based on that statement NOT being on their Web site, I think they could care less.

As for log file recording of IP addresses of every site visitor for prosecution... I'm supposed to believe a company that leaves their software TOTALLY unprotected on the Net for months with reports running rampant from end users has enough common sense to record IP addresses via log files? You want to take a guess if this site is not 3rd party develolped and/or hosted?

Ok, I'm done rambling on about this topic. Again, I understand your point and since my card reader is JUST NOW on the way, I will purchase the software from CPAP.com as I'm likewise a computer programmer and many of your points are valid and I feel if it helps with our therapy--that alone makes it worth the effort.

However, I'm planning on sending an email to Respironics (they were kind enough to reply to my last email) and ask them if it's LEGAL and within their acceptable use policy for a NON MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL to purchase their software from sites such as CPAP.com. If not, I suspect CPAP.com will need to add the famous prescription disclaimer like on CPAP purchases to the software so it's sold only to DME's, doctors and sleep labs.

Again, I don't think Respironics or the other "big" PAP vendors with smart card technology mind that an end-user is monitoring their own therapy and staying as educated as possible to all treatment options. If, however, it is their intention that NO PATIENT should have access to their software, Derek of (MyEncore) will probably not be a happy camper since I understand that software works in conjuction with Encore Pro.

Thanks!

[NightHawkeye]

Well, now we're getting somewhere. We're in full agreement that none of us can legally use any of this software for anything.

Since we've gone through the pretzel logic of just some of the legal contortions, I think I'll stick with common sense. Ultimately, that's how a court would be likely to decide in any case.

Regards,
Bill

[biggziff]

. . . Maybe it's just the stigma of free software. A lot of organizations just can't take something serious if they don't have to pay for it.

I agree with you, LandKurt. I suspect that there are legal issues with it as well.

We're all big boys and girls and I truly believe each of us knows the difference between right and wrong. You can try to justify it all you want to, but it's still wrong. Period.

I think I understand how you arrived at your position, Bigziff, but what about the issue of the licensing agreement which effectively forbids all of us here from using the software unless we happen to be employed in the healthcare industry?

Regards,
Bill

The developer sells to the retailer and the retailer sells to us. There are no restrictions on purchasing the software from the retailer and the developer is aware of this. It's a "hold harmless" of sorts. I've actually had this discussion with a friend who is an intellectual property attorney and the developer waives their right to the contract by using the retailer as an outlet. They're aware of it and just hope that it scares someone enough to not sue them if they were to incur injury from using the software. Like all "hold harmless" agreements in the US, it isn't worth the paper its written on.

[Laughing]

Well, now we're getting somewhere. We're in full agreement that none of us can legally use any of this software for anything.

LOL! Good one, Bill. Just points to the fact how absurd this is.

You forgot to mention biggziff's ominous warning that the fine "can be $25,000 for the first offense regardless of who you are or what you do with the software."

So not only can none of us legally use any of this software for anything, we should all be very afraid Respironics is coming for us. Even more absurd.

[biggziff]

I'm guessing that Respironics never imagined patients would be interested enough in their own therapy to purchase a smart card featured PAP system, a smart card and a smart card reader. Additionally, based on my assumption, I'm guessing they never bothered to "lock" down their software for one or two reasons:

1. They figured only DMEs, doctors or sleep labs would download the software (see above statments)

2. They figured the software licensing agreement (based on Bill's discussion earlier in this thread that states it's for medical professionals ONLY) would protect their software from illegal downloads.

I think it was VERY irresponsible for Respironics to place their software online totally unprotected for months! If we treated the software as "prescription only" like we treat the PAP machines, then it would be similar to the vendor taking a PAP patient to court claiming they ate all my prescription pain killers I left lying beside my swimming pool that doesn't have a fence around it (known as an attractive nuisance in many states). Now, am I trying to claim that it's acceptable for people to download the software forever free of charge and claim "rights" to Respironics intellectual property?--NO!

However, again I'm disappointed that Respironics has NOT listed on their Web site along with the new login/password requirement a LARGE BOLD FACE STATEMENT claiming that past site visitors downloading their software are in copyright violation (blah blah blah) and MUST REMOVE the software unless they are a medical professional.

Based on that statement NOT being on their Web site, I think they could care less.

As for log file recording of IP addresses of every site visitor for prosecution... I'm supposed to believe a company that leaves their software TOTALLY unprotected on the Net for months with reports running rampant from end users has enough common sense to record IP addresses via log files? You want to take a guess if this site is not 3rd party develolped and/or hosted?

Ok, I'm done rambling on about this topic. Again, I understand your point and since my card reader is JUST NOW on the way, I will purchase the software from CPAP.com as I'm likewise a computer programmer and many of your points are valid and I feel if it helps with our therapy--that alone makes it worth the effort.

However, I'm planning on sending an email to Respironics (they were kind enough to reply to my last email) and ask them if it's LEGAL and within their acceptable use policy for a NON MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL to purchase their software from sites such as CPAP.com. If not, I suspect CPAP.com will need to add the famous prescription disclaimer like on CPAP purchases to the software so it's sold only to DME's, doctors and sleep labs.

Again, I don't think Respironics or the other "big" PAP vendors with smart card technology mind that an end-user is monitoring their own therapy and staying as educated as possible to all treatment options. If, however, it is their intention that NO PATIENT should have access to their software, Derek of (MyEncore) will probably not be a happy camper since I understand that software works in conjuction with Encore Pro.

Thanks!

They really don't have any obligation to inform anyone that they shouldn't have downloaded the software. Everyone here knew full well what they were doing. Some chose to rationalize it as OK and just go on their merry way. I can't speak to that mentality. Perhaps being in the enforcement side of this kind of issue causes me to look at it a bit "skewed". Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

The logfile thing is a given. Setup a webserver and it creates logs by default. They use http://www.gblx.net/xml/index.xml as their host and as a public host company dealing with companies like medical companies they are required to maintain comprehensive logs of activity..so..like the man said.."its in there"

I bought the software so that I could monitor my treatment and discuss with my doc. He was pleased to see me come in with a print out of my therapy results and equally pleased to see the My Encore product's output. I don't make changes without consulting him because I respect his opinion, experience and position. We now enjoy a relationship not of peers, but of cooperative effort. Works well for us.

So...are we done?

[biggziff]

Well, now we're getting somewhere. We're in full agreement that none of us can legally use any of this software for anything.

LOL! Good one, Bill. Just points to the fact how absurd this is.

You forgot to mention biggziff's ominous warning that the fine "can be $25,000 for the first offense regardless of who you are or what you do with the software."

So not only can none of us legally use any of this software for anything, we should all be very afraid Respironics is coming for us. Even more absurd.

[Wulfman]

About a year ago, I had an e-mail exchange with the "support" people at Respironics about my actual AHI numbers being lower than what Encore Pro was reporting from it's own totals (averages). Anyway, their final reply to me was that Encore Pro was not INTENDED to be used by the XPAP end-user. They never told me to remove it from my computer or anything like that.
Therefore, I'm sure that the download site was meant to be used only by the professions that are making money from this therapy (doctors, DMEs and RTs).

From a personal perspective, (like I've stated many times before) I can't imagine doing this therapy without being able to monitor my nightly statistics. I would also hate to see anything happen that would keep any existing or future users from being able to monitor THEIR therapy. In other words, I want other XPAPers to AT LEAST be able to buy the software. I believe Ted (Titrator) covered this awhile back in that the 1.5i version was a BETA version for the new BI-PAP machines. Unless you have one of those machines, the 1.4i version should work just fine.....which is still available to be purchased.

I would suggest NOT contacting Respironics about the legalities of their software use. I think this has gone far enough and needs to be put to rest.

Den

[Smoking Gun]

biggziff wrote this suggestion:

Fines can be $25,000 for the first offense regardless of who you are or what you do with the software. Every person that downloaded the software had their IP address and DNS information recorded in the logs of the server at Respironics. Will they ever do anything with that data? I have no idea. I do know that I have seen people prosecuted for less.

but then biggziff wrote this:

No one is suggesting that anyone is "coming to get" anyone...

biggziff wrote this personal attack:

that you feel this way says volumes about your state of mind (add in the guest posting and it all seems clear)

but then biggziff wrote this:

When we start moving towards personal attacks its abundantly clear that the nerve has been hit and rational discussion is going out the window.

I have seen no personal attacks leveled in this thread (except yours). You volunteered the fact that you work in the area of IT security, which definitely brings a different perspective to this discussion. Software users, who are just trying to control their own therapy, are understandably sorry to see the free download disappear. IT security employees, who are just trying to do their job, are understandably happy to see it locked safely away. Whether or not you, or I, or anyone else thinks it should have ever been available for free, is a moot point.

[Joe_0206]

[yardbird]

I'm not going to get into the whole legal thing again, but I will say this...

I live and work in the IT field (at a university). I am a reseller of computer hardware and software. It is NOT an unusual thing to find the exact same software freely downloadable from the manufacturer AND available for retail purchase. So this argument that just because it was for sale someplace automatically making it a no-no to download it from the manufacturer when that manufacturer made it plainly available just don't fly with me. Sorry. Now they've placed it in an area that requires a login and pass. What does that mean? It means it's no longer freely available from the manufacturer. End of story.

I really see this as working to Respironics' (and cpap.com's) advantage. We LOVE this software. I'll buy the next new stable version from cpap.com and not grudgingly. ... gladly! ... because I really like the software.

What would I like to see?
I'd like to see this software available at lower cost and available to the people who actually USE teh equipment. Us. If they want to take away or disable the ability to change machine settings via the software and smartcard, so be it. I'll change settings at the machine's panel. I don't normally use it for changing settings anyways. I use it for information. Considering the development costs associated with this type of software I think they're missing out on a market that would enable them to recover a great deal more of those development costs. That market is none other than ... US!

I'm going to see if I can talk to someone in one of the patient's rights advocacy groups and see if there is any part of this they'd like to get involved in. Why? Because for those in the first 6 months or so of treatment, who are being monitored closely by doctor, DME, and/or insurance company, they have someone to read and interpret the data for them. (usually). Then there's folks like me and I'm sure probably a lot of YOU, that ...well...I don't HAVE a DME and my sleep doc only wants to see me about once a year and in his own words, "and you can cancel that and stretch it to 2 years if you want. Unless you have a problem. Then you're always welcome to call".

So who watches out for me in the in-between time?

none other than ... ME!
So why should I NOT have all the information available? Why is this software such a big secret? It shouldn't be.

Like I said... no qualms at all here about buying teh next version from cpap.com. Call it "cost of treatment" just like a new mask or a machine. But let's please stop bickering about the download versus the purchase. I like and respect you all too much to even want to participate in that discussion.

Wow... can this old guy ramble on or what!?!?!

[NightHawkeye]

Very well stated, Yardbird.

Regards,
Bill