No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Paper_Nanny
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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Paper_Nanny » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:40 pm

Mr Bill wrote:I did a brief search but could not find a reference. I recall I read somewhere that sighing is built in to our sleep by design. Apparently in normal sleep its necessary to sigh periodically to preserve integrity of smallest airways during sleep. Anybody else remember reading that?
I couldn't find references specifically to sleep, though I would think it would be the same purpose awake as asleep. "But I could be wrong. I often am." It is to prevent microatelectasis, "lung collapse visible only by microscope." (medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/microatelectasis) According to many references, adults typically sigh 6- 8 times per hour. No specification as to whether that is awake, asleep, or both.

So-- Could some of the sighs while I am sleeping NOT be associated with an "arousal", but rather be normal sighing to prevent microatelectasis?

Deborah

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PFT Results

Post by Paper_Nanny » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:59 pm


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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Mr Bill » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:50 pm

Paper_Nanny wrote:
Mr Bill wrote:I did a brief search but could not find a reference. I recall I read somewhere that sighing is built in to our sleep by design. Apparently in normal sleep its necessary to sigh periodically to preserve integrity of smallest airways during sleep. Anybody else remember reading that?
I couldn't find references specifically to sleep, though I would think it would be the same purpose awake as asleep. "But I could be wrong. I often am." It is to prevent microatelectasis, "lung collapse visible only by microscope." (medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/microatelectasis) According to many references, adults typically sigh 6- 8 times per hour. No specification as to whether that is awake, asleep, or both.

So-- Could some of the sighs while I am sleeping NOT be associated with an "arousal", but rather be normal sighing to prevent microatelectasis?

Deborah
That is precisely the gist of what I read. I understood it to be also during sleep.
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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Paper_Nanny » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:08 am

On Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 4:58 am
NotMuffy wrote:Anyway, in relation to the SDB issues, with clonazepam, baclofen, carisoprodol, cyclobenzaprine, trazodone and tramadol all having sedative properties, the first thing I would look for is if you've moved out of "sedation" into "chronic respiratory depression". The elevated CO2 (while it could have been metabolic) now appears to be respiratory, and an ABG may be in order (what you really needed to do was monitor ETCO2 during the NPSG, but that ship has sailed). If your PFT is normal, then the respiratory depression (if present) is central.
Question #1: Is there respiratory depression present? Have i moved out of "sedation" into "chronic respiratory depression"? Is an ABG in order?

Question #2: Was another suggestion to stop with all the xpap intervention and leave my breathing alone?

Also on the aforementioned date at the aforementioned time,
NotMuffy wrote:Another Note To Self: Consider altered apnea and arousal thresholds.
What was the result of that consideration?

Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:53 am
NotMuffy wrote:The CO2 issue (is it hypocarbia or hypercarbia) may be more clearly defined on Tuesday, but if it's a sleep-related central issue (or sleep fragmentation issue) then probably not.
Do I have a CO2 issue?

Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:46 pm
NotMuffy wrote:The answer provided for the ESS will be an explanation instead of a number.
I want to say something about that, but nothing seems sufficient or appropriate.

Deborah

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Paper_Nanny » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:20 pm

Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:53 am
NotMuffy wrote:The initial titration was very aggressive. With what amounted to a normal NPSG re: SBD, the decision was made to go straight to BiPAP. A trial of low-level CPAP would have been, as is now, a very viable option. Ask your guy that, I'd really like to hear the rationale for clubbing 41 obstructive events to death with an ASV.
Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:02 am
NotMuffy wrote:Figure out how to use your physician resources. ~~snip~~ (And I don't imagine he'd take too kindly to being called "MSD"?)(Which also relates to my points about dial wingin', questioning his authority by asking for raw data, and needing to win the war and not just a battle?)
What to do? In the interest of not questioning The Physician's Authority, and winning the war, should I not bring up the issue of the very aggressive titration and the clubbing of 41 obstructive events to death with an ASV? Or in the Interest of Understanding, the Aquisition of Information, and All the Associated Benefits, should I ask about that?

I am concerned that his treatment decisions are based on an erroneously conducted titration study.

Deborah

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Mr Bill » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:03 am

It seems to me you need some moral support
(1) DON'T PANIC
(2) Make sure you know where your towel is

Q. Why were 41 OSA's clubbed to death?
A. Because otherwise there might have been 42.
EPAP min=6, EPAP max=15, PS min=3, PS max=12, Max Pressure=30, Backup Rate=8 bpm, Flex=0, Rise Time=1,
90% EPAP=7.0, Avg PS=4.0, Avg bpm 18.3, Avg Min vent 9.2 Lpm, Avg CA/OA/H/AHI = 0.1/0.1/2.1/2.3 ... updated 02/17/12

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Paper_Nanny » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:12 pm

Mr Bill wrote:It seems to me you need some moral support
Thanks, Mr Bill...
Mr Bill wrote:(1) DON'T PANIC
No panic. Definitely not. It is too freaking hot here for that.
Mr Bill wrote:(2) Make sure you know where your towel is
Towel? I have been using a tarp.
Mr Bill wrote:Q. Why were 41 OSA's clubbed to death?
A. Because otherwise there might have been 42.

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Paper_Nanny » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:27 pm

Okay. I remembered how to post images. Thanks, RestedGal, for letting me know they hadn't shown up correctly.

Last night, my AHI went down to 5.2!! That is the lowest it has been in quite awhile. Mayhap it will stay that low. Here is the detailed report from last night...

Image

The period of time with the large leaks is when the dog was growling at something going on outside the house behind ours. I was telling Dog to hush up. And then telling Husband I didn't know what was going on out there, but it sounded like someone breaking was breaking into the neighbours' car. Which is not what it was.

Here is the link to last night's waves...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... 4&hl=en_US

After subtracting out the central apneas during phasic REM and the post sigh apneas, I think it was a pretty good night. And not only as far as the numbers go, but also as far as "How do I feel?" goes. Because I have felt energetic and not so sleepy all day.

On Thursday and Friday, I cut out my afternoon dose of methylphenidate and modafinil. Not intentionally. I plain old forgot. Which shows that I was not feeling so tired between 1:00 and 2:00, because usually I am so tired I don't forget to take those. And also shows I was chipper and perky because I didn't really miss that afternoon rush of pharmocological energy.

Here are the detailed reports from 07-25 to 07-29.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And, completely OT, my dog died yesterday. Not the one in my avatar, my other dog. He was 13.5 years old. A good dog. He is missed very much.

Deborah

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Last edited by Paper_Nanny on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by rested gal » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:18 am

Very sorry about your other dog's death, Deborah.

They do become part of the family... and they leave us too soon.
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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by JohnBFisher » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:54 pm

Deborah, you have my empathy on the death of your dog. Ours died this past April. I still miss him a lot. So, I do empathize.

Here's a poem that I found at the time, that I share with you. Perhaps it will help you voice how you feel.

John Galsworthy wrote:
Memories

Not the least hard thing to bear when
they go from us, these quiet friends,
is that they carry away with them so
many years of our lives. Yet, if they
find warmth therein, who would
begrudge them those years that they
have so guarded?
And whatever they take,
be sure they have deserved.

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by dsm » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:17 pm

jnk wrote:
Paper_Nanny wrote: . . . the other two "suggestions". . . .
My interpretation of "suggestions": (1) Check your response to low-level CPAP; (2) explore possibilities of present drug influence on your sleep; (3) work on sleep-hygiene issues in order to "pass" Epworth's crazy quiz. But I could be wrong. I often am. But that's OK. It can still help move a discussion along.
Paper_Nanny wrote:
NotMuffy wrote: . . . If that time span was 10 seconds or more, that was a central apnea (not really, you'd need to be asleep, but pretend).
MBoC: Why do people have to be sleeping for a central apnea event to occur? . . .
(bolding mine)

I believe the "not really" statement was (1) partly in view of the 10-second rule, which is for sleep, not wake, and (2) partly in view of the fact that during wake when one chooses to behaviorally control breathing by choosing to sigh, one has mostly entered the realm of metaphoric comparison to sleep-breathing rather than the realm of a true demonstration of exactly what happens during sleep. I very much respect NotMuffy for always being that careful in his teaching about the matter. Good stuff. Perfect illustration. Especially when qualified like that.

An overview that I found enlightening, myself:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/3 ... view#a0104
jnk provided an excellent link there (very informative) ... this extract seems very pertinent ...

>>
Central sleep apnea is most often seen during non–rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep, when behavioral influence is least, followed by rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, while a fully awake person is least likely to manifest it. Despite these changes, ventilatory control during sleep remains similar to that during wakefulness.

Sleep is characterized by elevation of arterial carbon dioxide tension (PaCO2) and a higher PaCO2 apneic threshold, the PaCO2 below which apnea occurs. Reduction of PaCO2 just a few mm Hg below the PaCO2 set point can result in apneas. Central apneic events commonly occur during the transition between wake and sleep, a period during which the PaCO2 set point adjusts.
<<

DSM

PS Deborah, so sorry to read about the loss of your friend (dog) - sad even if age finally caught up D
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Re: PFT Results

Post by Paper_Nanny » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:53 am

Is that hyperinflation something to be concerned with? (I will put that on my list of questions for MSD).

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Medication Review

Post by Paper_Nanny » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:00 am

Thanks for the condolences on the death of my dog.

I have completed one of the aforementioned homework assignments- the review of my medications by a sharp pharmacist. I modified the assignment, though, and had my medications reviewed by a sharp rheumatologist.

I had a very long, very interesting appointment with my rheumatologist (MR) yesterday. He is the physician treating my fibromyalgia and also the one who had sent me in for my sleep study. I had him do a thorough review of my medications, focusing on the question: What is this medication doing to my sleep?

Before I get into what he said, I need to give a brief summary of his explanation of fibromyalgia. FM is a disorder involving two key features. The first is that FM involves a disorder of sleep architecture, most significantly, a lack of deep sleep. The second is that a brain affected with FM does not process pain signals in the same way that a nonaffected brain does. The question of which is the cause and which is the effect is a question that has been widely debated amongst those specialising in FM.

MR and I talked some yesterday about the REM suppressing effects of some of the medications I take. His position on that is that from a practical stand point, it doesn’t really matter. If people are deprived of REM sleep, he said, they will eventually start hallucinating and that seems to be the only significant problem of REM deprivation. Obviously, my REM sleep deprivation hasn’t crossed that line In other words, since I am not experiencing symptoms of REM deprivation, we need not be particularly concerned with that.

What we do need to be concerned with is the lack of deep sleep. During stage 4 sleep, the pain regulatory part of the limbic system is rested. Functional MRI studies have shown that during stage 4 sleep, that area of the brain is inactive. Through mechanisms we don’t yet understand, it is being restored. When the pain regulatory part of the limbic system is discharging at night, it underperforms during the day. The pain component of FM is a sign of the underperformance.

MR said there is no way to restore or correct the abnormal sleep architecture in someone with FM. So, treatment focuses on decreasing pain and correcting the abnormal brain chemistry- the levels of serotonin and norephinephrine (NE). Those two factors are intertwined with each other, so separating them is somewhat artificial.

Flexeril, cymbalta, klonopin, neurontin, trazadone, and zanaflex, along with the soma and ultram I take prn, all decrease the pain level. Because there is more than one inhibitory pathway, a combination of medication is needed for effective pain management.

Some of those medications also work to normalize brain chemistry by working on the serotonin and NE pathways. Some of them may be suppressing REM sleep, but, more importantly, none of them are interfering with stage 4 sleep.

He did suggest one medication change for me, which is a change from cymbalta to savella. Cymbalta increases serotonin and NE at a ratio of 3:1. Savella increases at a ratio of 1:3. He said it is possible that since savella has a higher increase in NE, it may work better for fatigue. If this is true, it may allow me to reduce or completely eliminate the methylphenidate and provigil that I take.

MR is also going to set up a referral to a sleep specialist in another part of the state who has used xyrem to help normalize the sleep architecture in people with FM. Because of the potential for abuse and misuse with xyrem, physicians much have specific training to prescribe it. The sleep specialist to whom I will be referred is the only one MR knows of in this area who is able to prescribe it.

I was so focused on finding a pharmacist to give me information about my medications that I had completely forgotten about MR as a resource in that area. In my opinion, he is an excellent physician. He is very knowledgeable about all aspects of FM. He takes time to answer all my questions. He gives as much detail as needed for me to be satisfied with the answers. He also explains any parts of his answers that I don’t completely understand, filling in whatever background information is needed. He has a good sense of humour and he is easy to talk to.

Deborah

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Re: Medication Review

Post by fiberfan » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:32 pm

Paper_Nanny wrote:MR is also going to set up a referral to a sleep specialist in another part of the state who has used xyrem to help normalize the sleep architecture in people with FM.
I think this is the med a friend with FM is taking. Friend started the med with a clinical trial and described the med as basically the same as GHB. The positive changes in friend's energy levels have been wonderful to see.

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Re: No Answers Yet For Problems With ASV

Post by Mr Bill » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:03 pm

jnk wrote:...

An overview that I found enlightening, myself:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/3 ... view#a0104
Fits me to a T. Especially the insomnia. My mom was in the hospital last week starting off with an ER visit till 3 in the morning and then admittance. So I got very little sleep all last week. She is out and doing fine by the way. It was colitis and three days of IV antibiotics took care of it. The more tired I get, the worse my CSA gets but also the worse my insomnia gets. I just can't bring myself to head for bed knowing I will be jumping up choking after a few minutes. The waking sleep transition seems to get worse for me when I am tired. The adrenaline of waking sets off my asthma and and GERD its just really hard to even consider sleeping, even thought that is what will fix much of the problem. If I can just get to sleep.

I know this is off topic on the thread but it seemed not a worthy topic for a new thread and I know y'all in particular know what its like. Now to go try and sleep.
EPAP min=6, EPAP max=15, PS min=3, PS max=12, Max Pressure=30, Backup Rate=8 bpm, Flex=0, Rise Time=1,
90% EPAP=7.0, Avg PS=4.0, Avg bpm 18.3, Avg Min vent 9.2 Lpm, Avg CA/OA/H/AHI = 0.1/0.1/2.1/2.3 ... updated 02/17/12