Are We Really Carnivores?

[Slartybartfast]

From time to time folks post here about their health problems, as they touch on their CPAP therapy. We are all told there is at least some correlation between sex, obesity, anatomy and our ending up here discussing ways to make our CPAP therapy more effective. Not much can be done about our sex, or our anatomy (narrow airway, deviated septum, etc), but weight is another matter. A surprising number of folks on this forum have reported losing a LOT of weight, which started me thinking about the possible reason for the rapid increase in obesity and all its attendant health effects that have plauged us in recent years.

A while back on one of the threads I made the observation that, since the digestive system of Man (and Woman) is more similar to that of a carnivore than an herbivore, then shouldn't it stand to reason that the unseen regulatory machinery in our physiology would be more tuned toward a high fat/protein and low carb diet than the low fat/protein, high carb diet we are recommended to consume by the authorities? Someone recommended The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson, which I read. But his contention that aboriginal people on natural (for them) diets are optimal didn't wash, because I've seen the pics in National Geographic of dumpy natives in the jungles of South America and elsewhere. It seemed to me there was more to it than that.

Someone else recommended Gary Taubes books, Why We Get Fat and Good Carbs, Bad Carbs. I just finished reading the former and I think his claims are convincing. At least the biochemistry that he uses to support his claims is the same biochemistry that I learned in college many years ago, but nobody put it all together in a coherent sequence for me until I read Taubes' book. I've gotta say, I think the man is on to something with his conclusion that dietary carbohydrates drive insulin which drives fat storage. What he says is not new (he quotes sources back to the 17th Century whose recommendations jived with his idea that carbs are "fattening"), and it's not radical.

I was eating lunch just now (chicken breast and cottage cheese) and in between bites, posed the question to Google about the similarities between the human digestive system and that of a carnivore and came up with the following link:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_h ... ison4.html

If you compare the characteristics listed in the table, it's clear that Homo sapiens are carnivores, not herbivores. We're taught these days that we're omnivores like bears, and as has been recently discovered, Chimpanzees, but our gross anatomy is very much like that of a carnivore. Take a gander and see what you think.

Was looking at a series of videos last night of a presentation by Gary Taubes at U.C. Berkeley. It's worth watching, especially if you're overweight, or diabetic, or know someone who is. He does a good job of explaining why a high carb/low fat dietary regieme is perhaps the cause of many health problems we face. If you haven't yet read his books, this presentation gives you a good introduction to the evidence that leads him to conclude that carbohydrates in our diet are problematic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVvZP2av5Mk

If you're not convinced, or at least intrigued, then perhaps this is something for you to ruminate on.

[BlackSpinner]

We are omnivores. We can take advantage of all kinds of food but we need meat to support our over sized brains. The fact that we can survive quite comfortably on minimal amounts of meat means we were able to colonize all sorts of niches a pure carnivore couldn't.
The problem with modern society is that we over indulge in food and under indulge in exercise - you are supposed to obtain your food by walking 10 miles or carrying 50lbs of goods or running down that deer, not by walking to the fridge and nuking a frozen dinner.

[Slartybartfast]

All of which, with respect, indicates you have neither read Taubes' book, nor viewed any of the videos. That's the stuff we've been taught since the 1960s, which (coincidentally?) is about the time the obesity/diabetes/cancer/heart disease incidences began to rapidly increase.

We've been fed a load of pablam by the dietary authorities, who, as Taubes indicates in the 10th video, refuse to examine the well-established scientific evidence, but rather, are more interested in public policy.

Read the book, then make up your own mind.

[chunkyfrog]

The food pyramid was a marketing tool designed to help sell grain, which is cheap.
We need a balanced diet; but carbs and fats must be balanced with activity.

[JeffH]

The food pyramid was a marketing tool designed to help sell grain, which is cheap.
We need a balanced diet; but carbs and fats must be balanced with activity.

Not true in my case. I walked 3 or 4 miles a day and gained weight doing so until I read Sission and Dr. Bernstein's books and cut WAY down on the carbs and loaded up on the protein and fat. Now I walk and do less than I used to (I still do something every day) and there are 100lbs less of me. I SEE the results of this everyday in the mirror. It isn't some BS "theory" to me, it is fact.

JeffH

[Bons]

I haven't read the book but I've read THE book (what can I say, I'm a pastor) and since way back when we have been omnivores - Bible says that we've eaten meat since the fall of Adam and Eve (personally I belief that most Bible stories are legends, but that contain truth); I also support evolution theories, and I know that apes all enjoy eating meat; and we have the teeth as well as the digestive systems of meat-eaters.

The problem with eating a largely protein diet stems from our overpopulating the earth and destroying much of the habitat (especially in this country through urban sprawl and being dependent upon the housing industry for our economy). We have problems with having enough room to free-range food animals and grow enough grains to feed them and us. That makes the whole process of meat production inhumane and makes it harder for me to eat meat without some sense of guilt (enjoyment, but mixed with guilt), and helps meat become too expensive for many people.

There is also a dearth of grocery stores in urban areas, so if people don't have access to good transportation they end up eating convenience store food, which is often high fat/high carbohydrates.

Or people are like me: when I'm depressed or anxious I don't think about broiling a chicken breast or peeling a carrot- it's carbs and fat that I crave.

[torontoCPAPguy]

The food pyramid was a marketing tool designed to help sell grain, which is cheap.
We need a balanced diet; but carbs and fats must be balanced with activity.

Not true in my case. I walked 3 or 4 miles a day and gained weight doing so until I read Sission and Dr. Bernstein's books and cut WAY down on the carbs and loaded up on the protein and fat. Now I walk and do less than I used to (I still do something every day) and there are 100lbs less of me. I SEE the results of this everyday in the mirror. It isn't some BS "theory" to me, it is fact.

JeffH

Jeff has hit the nail right on the head and I have been seeing a doctor who is also a PhD and wrote his thesis on nutritian. Fact is that we are indeed omnivores but built upon a carnivore body. I have begun a modified Paleo eating regimen and not only is it about losing some weight which many of us need to do, it is also very much about proper nutrition for our bodies. 80% of the population is shy on magnesium, potassium, taurine, CoEnzyme Q10 as well as being dehydrated or watered down with sewage water. I now eat paleo and feel the best I have felt in years while the weight drops off, no matter how much Paleo I ingest (almost). I also supplement the above and get my blood serum tested to ensure I am on the right track (I take a few other supplements as well). I drink ONLY known (KNOWN!) spring water and preferably distilled water - no sugary drinks or chemically sweetened drinks. I eat NOTHING that is processed in any way or has come into contact with items not on the paleo list of foods. My big loss was ketchup, believe me! Last night dinner consisted of 'organic' potroast slow cooked with fast frozen unadulterated veggies sans carbs like tubers (potatos). We made allowance for those that are carb addicted like my son by cooking up some unadulterated rice (no Uncle Ben's in this house any more). I had a bowl full the size of a swimming pool along with a couple of giant plums during the evening and nothing to eat within 2-4 hours of sleep.

Investigate... your body will thank you.

[archangle]

Or people are like me: when I'm depressed or anxious I don't think about broiling a chicken breast or peeling a carrot- it's carbs and fat that I crave.

Somebody needs to make a line of tasty and "healthy" protein and fat snack food without too much salt and other chemicals.

There are a few choices, such as pecans, sunflower kernels, etc. I've found some good precooked chicken breasts that I can quickly microwave. Some lean ham deli meat is actually halfway decent as a snack. Cocktail sausages can be nuked pretty quickly.

[BlackSpinner]

All of which, with respect, indicates you have neither read Taubes' book, nor viewed any of the videos. That's the stuff we've been taught since the 1960s, which (coincidentally?) is about the time the obesity/diabetes/cancer/heart disease incidences began to rapidly increase.

We've been fed a load of pablam by the dietary authorities, who, as Taubes indicates in the 10th video, refuse to examine the well-established scientific evidence, but rather, are more interested in public policy.

Read the book, then make up your own mind.

Irrelevant. We would not have the civilizations we have now eating only meat. The Neanderthal were many meat eaters, big game, maybe they were healthy but they are also gone.

The 60's started the fast food ,frozen TV dinners and drive thru fad. It also started the TV in every house. Just look north of the 49th parallel - we are behind you in fast food, frozen dinners and drive in everything - we are also behind you in the obesity race.

If you are going to live a modern urban lifestyle you can't eat junk food or even the food our grandparents ate. I don't disagree with him, it just isn't as simple as that.

[snuginarug]

The title of this thread puzzles me. No matter what food choices we make, no matter what proportion of food groups we decide is best, no matter what diet we thrive on, the fact is we are omnivores. This is not theory or mumbo jumbo or something that is up for debate. We are not carnivores. We are not herbivores. We are omnivores. I felt the need to answer the direct question on the title of this thread.

[NightMonkey]

perhaps this is something for you to ruminate on.

I had a one-lb. filet of grilled wild salmon filet slathered with drawn butter and a few green beans for lunch yesterday. Felt great with level blood-sugar and insulin levels all afternoon!

Keep posting the truth.

[M.D.Hosehead]

perhaps this is something for you to ruminate on.

Only herbivores ruminate.
Gotcha.

Look at the molars of your cat or dog. Look at your molars. Humans are built to be omnivores. Arguments to the contrary are spurious.

and we have the teeth as well as the digestive systems of meat-eaters

That's anatomically incorrect.

Another thing to chew on. ( ) Some of us try hard to live healthy. Others smoke, get fat, develop chronic diseases, and die younger than they otherwise might. While that's important to us as individuals, from Nature's point of view, it's irrelevant. Nature cherishes the species, not the individual. Biologically, once we've raised offspring to the point they can survive and reproduce, our continued individual existence is superfluous.

That's the biology.

The philosophical question is: having fulfilled our biological purpose, what is the purpose of the rest of our lives? If we are trying to live healthier and longer, why?

[mars]

Hi All

M.D.Hosehead has it right, in all respects.

We do not have the teeth of carnivores.

Humans who are vegetarians live longer.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 65083.html

Humans who are vegetarian are healthier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

On a personal note, I was a vegetarian for 13 years, and (subjectively) my body was in the best condition ever, and so was my energy.

But as we all know, bias beat facts any day.

I do not defend my position as a current meat-eater, it is a failing on my part, which I still hope to overcome. I know that eating flesh is often a "fixing feelings activity", and nothing to do with what my body needs .

cheers

Mars

[BlackSpinner]

Another thing to chew on. ( ) Some of us try hard to live healthy. Others smoke, get fat, develop chronic diseases, and die younger than they otherwise might. While that's important to us as individuals, from Nature's point of view, it's irrelevant. Nature cherishes the species, not the individual. Biologically, once we've raised offspring to the point they can survive and reproduce, our continued individual existence is superfluous.

That's the biology.

The philosophical question is: having fulfilled our biological purpose, what is the purpose of the rest of our lives? If we are trying to live healthier and longer, why?

Actually with Humans not quite. Studies have shown that the longer a woman lives the more surviving children her daughters have. In other words grandmothers used to be very important to the human group survival and reproduction. Grandfathers however made no difference or in some cases a negative difference.

However when it comes to diet nature doesn't really care that much since she made sure we could survive and reproduce on any kind of food (if not flourish).

I swing both ways on this issue. Health wise i like the low carb diet. Philosophically and politically I know it is not sustainable without eliminating most of the worlds population. Also I have ethical issues with the idea of eating meat and the industry around it.

[snuginarug]

You know, I feel a bit annoyed that so many people are promoting their own dietary choices as the best for all. We are unique. I can live quite well on vegetarian diet, while my friend NEEDS meat or he is famished 24/7. What is good for one is not necessarily good for another. I feel bloated and constipated if I eat too much meat, whereas my friend feels top notch only when he is getting the meat that is necessary for him. We have different genetics. Neither of us is "right."

Investigate... your body will thank you.

I heartily agree that investigation is the best way to discover what is best for YOU. Not swallowing fads wholesale. (Err, no pun was intended. )