Snork1,
Nothing antagonistic meant. As this is a life threatening illness, we have to approach any and all "cures" with a healthy dose of caution.
I applaud your efforts, but was just cautioning you to be aware that the lack of events could be due to a combination of both the device and the pressure from the 420. This would not prove that the device alone would be enough to take care of all events.
We are all looking for a simple and easy to deal with answer to OSA, but we don't want to let our hopes dictate our actions without regard to actual results.
Aveo TSD - a different approach
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Guest
I agree.
Just as "I tried it and it didn't work for me" has little validity, so too the testimonials that shout, "Hallelujiah, I'm cured" have little merit without scientific studies to support or refute claims by manufacturerers seeking to make a buck.
I did a cursory literature search and could not find any papers (either pro or con) on the device in question.
Just as "I tried it and it didn't work for me" has little validity, so too the testimonials that shout, "Hallelujiah, I'm cured" have little merit without scientific studies to support or refute claims by manufacturerers seeking to make a buck.
I did a cursory literature search and could not find any papers (either pro or con) on the device in question.
Let's try rephrasing things:
Snork1, at this point, needs a pressure of 6, and benefits from it.
Low, even very low pressure may be very nececssary for some to avoid apneas.
It's also possible - again, for some people - the a pressure or 4 is necessary for them to avoid apneas. When I started therapy, I cound feel the difference between 4 and 5, and preferred to have 4 as my lower limit. It was the higher pressure that felt suffocating. One of by best nights was spent at 4.
We all report things we try that help us, and whoever reads these reports should read them with the proper caution: Here is what one person tried, and it worked (or didn't work) for them. Is there research on the altenative device? Do I want to try it if there hasn't been enough research done? That is a personal decision. In a sense, a case of one makes us wonder if we want to do a pilot study on ourselves... Nobody has done a research on scrunchies on the wall - but many of us have decided to use them. It's obviously a question of magnitude - and curiousity.
Snork1, by the way has one the most careful (and funniest) disclaimers around...
That said: anyone who was perscribed cpap therapy based on a PSG should not decide to stop it, "because they found an alternative" without testing that altenative in a PSG.
O.
P. S. You're welcom, Mike.
Snork1, at this point, needs a pressure of 6, and benefits from it.
Low, even very low pressure may be very nececssary for some to avoid apneas.
It's also possible - again, for some people - the a pressure or 4 is necessary for them to avoid apneas. When I started therapy, I cound feel the difference between 4 and 5, and preferred to have 4 as my lower limit. It was the higher pressure that felt suffocating. One of by best nights was spent at 4.
We all report things we try that help us, and whoever reads these reports should read them with the proper caution: Here is what one person tried, and it worked (or didn't work) for them. Is there research on the altenative device? Do I want to try it if there hasn't been enough research done? That is a personal decision. In a sense, a case of one makes us wonder if we want to do a pilot study on ourselves... Nobody has done a research on scrunchies on the wall - but many of us have decided to use them. It's obviously a question of magnitude - and curiousity.
Snork1, by the way has one the most careful (and funniest) disclaimers around...
That said: anyone who was perscribed cpap therapy based on a PSG should not decide to stop it, "because they found an alternative" without testing that altenative in a PSG.
O.
P. S. You're welcom, Mike.
_________________
| Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear |
| Additional Comments: Machine: Resmed AirSense10 for Her with Climateline heated hose ; alternating masks. |
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Guest
Okay, but medical care in this country is sky high in cost. You can't assume that after somebody gets a aveo TSD or mandiular oral applicance that their going to go back for another sleep test (AFTER maybe the first one w/ titration, of course). There has to be a better way....
I just found on the internet that Sham CPAP's are now at pressures of 1 and 2 cm for studies involving OSA treatment. However, I've read previously that concerns of any pressures under 4 to be hazardous because adequate CO2 is not expelled from the mask and rebreathing happens. I was under the impression that such low numbers are not even programable into cpap devices and Hence the pressure of 4 or 5 non-therupetic. (IF I was wrong which I'm assuming I was I would appreciate some evidence of what the lower limit is on effective CPAP therapy.)
I think that if we're going to be fair about this then we should maybe consider the reduction effects first of using an auto with the aveo TSD if side by side over a period of a week each there's a significant level of AHI reduction. As is the case with Snork then further investion should be warrented.
There should be a device that was approved by the FDA sometime ago that can do a HOME sleep study. This could be a cheaper option that won't further inflate (by further buying into) the already price gouging medical industry. Or there's sleep strips that can indentify apnea that are reasonable compared to the price of another sleep test. We as consumers (as the medical industry sees us) should be pushing for these and other cheaper alternatives that lower the cost of medical care. The more we purchase and spend on unneccesary tests,devices, sub-par expensive treatments and procedures the more they are going to develop unnecessary tests,devices, sub-par expensive treatments and procedures (simple economics).
AS a last possible resort we should call up the doc and see him (~$400) and go for another sleep test ($2500 & up) to insure that our oral applicances work effectively alone.
IF worst comes to worst and you need both, to get great results (or the best possible ) LIKE in snork's case virtually a ZERO ahi and he feels better then so be it..!! I think the combination of the two is a great idea and others have as well apparently as I've found on the internet CPAP masks that have integrated oral applicances.
stryker5777
"UNDER CONSTRUCTION DISCLAIMER..."
I just found on the internet that Sham CPAP's are now at pressures of 1 and 2 cm for studies involving OSA treatment. However, I've read previously that concerns of any pressures under 4 to be hazardous because adequate CO2 is not expelled from the mask and rebreathing happens. I was under the impression that such low numbers are not even programable into cpap devices and Hence the pressure of 4 or 5 non-therupetic. (IF I was wrong which I'm assuming I was I would appreciate some evidence of what the lower limit is on effective CPAP therapy.)
I think that if we're going to be fair about this then we should maybe consider the reduction effects first of using an auto with the aveo TSD if side by side over a period of a week each there's a significant level of AHI reduction. As is the case with Snork then further investion should be warrented.
There should be a device that was approved by the FDA sometime ago that can do a HOME sleep study. This could be a cheaper option that won't further inflate (by further buying into) the already price gouging medical industry. Or there's sleep strips that can indentify apnea that are reasonable compared to the price of another sleep test. We as consumers (as the medical industry sees us) should be pushing for these and other cheaper alternatives that lower the cost of medical care. The more we purchase and spend on unneccesary tests,devices, sub-par expensive treatments and procedures the more they are going to develop unnecessary tests,devices, sub-par expensive treatments and procedures (simple economics).
AS a last possible resort we should call up the doc and see him (~$400) and go for another sleep test ($2500 & up) to insure that our oral applicances work effectively alone.
IF worst comes to worst and you need both, to get great results (or the best possible ) LIKE in snork's case virtually a ZERO ahi and he feels better then so be it..!! I think the combination of the two is a great idea and others have as well apparently as I've found on the internet CPAP masks that have integrated oral applicances.
stryker5777
"UNDER CONSTRUCTION DISCLAIMER..."
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Stryker5777
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:52 pm
still on the road, so I can't analyze data and give detailed analysis.
My idea of dropping to 4 was to see if my 90% pressure would still be 6cm, or if it would drop. If it stays at 6cm WITH the device, I need to proceed with EXTREME caution, instead of just with moderate caution.
Mixed results so far.
It does take getting used to, and you do have to work up to a full night of use. I tried to rush it, and that didn't work out.
Getting used to adjusting the suction is major too.
At the very least, it MIGHT be a good way to stop mouth leaks and knock down your peak pressure significantly.
Is it worth the price of admission? Thats a TBD for me still.
My idea of dropping to 4 was to see if my 90% pressure would still be 6cm, or if it would drop. If it stays at 6cm WITH the device, I need to proceed with EXTREME caution, instead of just with moderate caution.
Mixed results so far.
It does take getting used to, and you do have to work up to a full night of use. I tried to rush it, and that didn't work out.
Getting used to adjusting the suction is major too.
At the very least, it MIGHT be a good way to stop mouth leaks and knock down your peak pressure significantly.
Is it worth the price of admission? Thats a TBD for me still.
Remember:
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
some positive results
I hit the limit of "stall out" pressure on my CPAP setup for myself at around 4cm, which does indeed limit my ability to test "Aveo TSD" alone usage. Numbers generally seem to continue to follow as I drop pressure up to that point. Then at 4cm my Activa won't maintain a seal. I also note that my Swift is MUCH leakier than the Activa so its hard to get the degree of accuracy I am looking for in this data.
Once I pretty much eliminate mouth leaks completely with the Aveo, the leaky swift really stands out, although its actually more comfortable to use with the Aveo because the Activa and the Aveo interfere a bit.
What I REALLY need at this point....assuming a sleep doc isn't going to volunteer his services and a sleep study, and I am a bit short of cash to invest $3000 or so into checking this out, is a cheap(used) finger pulse oximeter with overnight monitoring capability, because bottom line, its all about blood oxygen level, with cessation of snoring being a nice side effect, and feeling better being a secondary result of keeping oxygen levels up. I know someone mentioned something about an oximeter they cobbled together for a reasonable price, but it seemed to take an advanced degree in programming and electrical engineering to get it put together. Does anyone know of a RELATIVELY cheap oximeter approach? Which is actually something I am interested in for checking ALL my CPAP therapy approaches. I also wonder how fast blood oxygen levels recover, and if checking the levels upon waking with an instantaneous readout (available for $300 or so) would give any indication? Any brainiacs out there have any firm knowledge on this?
So far, I STILL say this device is a challenge to adapt to. Biggest problem is regulating the suction to be minimal without letting go of the tongue. Its very easy to put WAY to much suction on the tongue, which will be quite uncomfortable after a few hours. Drooling is improving and only occasionally seems to suddenly "spout" for unknown reasons. The first night or so might be good to sleep with a towel on the pillow.
Apneas incidents are still NONE to one or two a night and the CPAP usually stays at minimum pressure unless my nose clogs or I drink WAY too much, which is thankfully rare. Hypopneas, which always stayed high under ALL conditions with CPAP for me, and the doc said to ignore (based on sleep study results) have also dropped to just a couple or a few.
I have backed off on all night usage of the TSD, planning on working up gradually and switch to the DIY tongue guide for mouth leaks. I can tell exactly on the readouts when I make this switch.
I have on a number of occasions, taken off my CPAP and spent the last couple of hours just using the Aveo (disclaimer: Kids, do NOT try this at home) I felt just as good as a full night of CPAP. I admit that is VERY inconclusive....but interesting.
My INITIAL conclusion is the aveo TSD device does SOMETHING And seems to HELP at the very least. Whether it is worth the price of admission monetarily or comfortwise, is To Be Determined. And whether it can allow a lucky few to keep their CPAP only as a backup, is pending figuring out blood oxygen levels.
ONE MORE REMINDER. This device will ONLY work if a primary causal mechanism of your apnea is your tongue sliding back. If you lay down and neck fat closes down your throat, even when awake, I doubt this device would help. Like most apnea treatments, this one treatment (assuming it works) would NOT be for EVERYONE.
Once I pretty much eliminate mouth leaks completely with the Aveo, the leaky swift really stands out, although its actually more comfortable to use with the Aveo because the Activa and the Aveo interfere a bit.
What I REALLY need at this point....assuming a sleep doc isn't going to volunteer his services and a sleep study, and I am a bit short of cash to invest $3000 or so into checking this out, is a cheap(used) finger pulse oximeter with overnight monitoring capability, because bottom line, its all about blood oxygen level, with cessation of snoring being a nice side effect, and feeling better being a secondary result of keeping oxygen levels up. I know someone mentioned something about an oximeter they cobbled together for a reasonable price, but it seemed to take an advanced degree in programming and electrical engineering to get it put together. Does anyone know of a RELATIVELY cheap oximeter approach? Which is actually something I am interested in for checking ALL my CPAP therapy approaches. I also wonder how fast blood oxygen levels recover, and if checking the levels upon waking with an instantaneous readout (available for $300 or so) would give any indication? Any brainiacs out there have any firm knowledge on this?
So far, I STILL say this device is a challenge to adapt to. Biggest problem is regulating the suction to be minimal without letting go of the tongue. Its very easy to put WAY to much suction on the tongue, which will be quite uncomfortable after a few hours. Drooling is improving and only occasionally seems to suddenly "spout" for unknown reasons. The first night or so might be good to sleep with a towel on the pillow.
Apneas incidents are still NONE to one or two a night and the CPAP usually stays at minimum pressure unless my nose clogs or I drink WAY too much, which is thankfully rare. Hypopneas, which always stayed high under ALL conditions with CPAP for me, and the doc said to ignore (based on sleep study results) have also dropped to just a couple or a few.
I have backed off on all night usage of the TSD, planning on working up gradually and switch to the DIY tongue guide for mouth leaks. I can tell exactly on the readouts when I make this switch.
I have on a number of occasions, taken off my CPAP and spent the last couple of hours just using the Aveo (disclaimer: Kids, do NOT try this at home) I felt just as good as a full night of CPAP. I admit that is VERY inconclusive....but interesting.
My INITIAL conclusion is the aveo TSD device does SOMETHING And seems to HELP at the very least. Whether it is worth the price of admission monetarily or comfortwise, is To Be Determined. And whether it can allow a lucky few to keep their CPAP only as a backup, is pending figuring out blood oxygen levels.
ONE MORE REMINDER. This device will ONLY work if a primary causal mechanism of your apnea is your tongue sliding back. If you lay down and neck fat closes down your throat, even when awake, I doubt this device would help. Like most apnea treatments, this one treatment (assuming it works) would NOT be for EVERYONE.
Remember:
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
-
sapphireskye
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:22 pm
- Location: Colorado
- Contact:
Hey Snork
Maybe you could get your Primary care doc to give you a prescription for one of the sleep strips available on cpap.com to conduct a study without the cpap machine. Perhaps you could find a doctor willing to do this for you. I give you a lot of credit for having the courage to try this new device out. I really hope you can find someone to help you get what you need to conduct this research.
God bless
Chelle
God bless
Chelle
Re: Hey Snork
[quote="sapphireskye"]Maybe you could get your Primary care doc to give you a prescription for one of the sleep strips available on cpap.com to conduct a study without the cpap machine. Perhaps you could find a doctor willing to do this for you. I give you a lot of credit for having the courage to try this new device out. I really hope you can find someone to help you get what you need to conduct this research.
God bless
Chelle
God bless
Chelle
Remember:
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
-
Stryker5777
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:52 pm
Hey snork,
I remember reading on here that if you goto your dme (or perhaps one your doc associates with) and you have a script for a oxy meter that they will give it to you to borrow for free. I remember them saying that dmes do not have a insurance code for this item, so they typically don't charge. However I have not personally done this so I can't be sure if they're correct or not.
OR ebay sometimes sell cheap oximeters that could be used for home sleep studies, but computer interface software is very expensive and difficult to find. I was told by one vendor that getting a oximeter printer is probably the most cost effective way to go. I wasn't able to find a combo of the two of them tho. Perhaps you will have more luck. Most oximeters that I found online intended for sleep labs over night recording w/ software is in the range of $1,000-$1,400.
Spot checkers probably wouldn't help as oxygen levels only take a few minutes to recover or drop, as far as I know. However, blood pressure monitoring may be beneficial as the effects of sleep apnea might be apparent in your blood pressure scores. Perhaps when one wakes up in the morning before they move out of bed. Not sure if spot checking in this manner helps here or how long an apnea event causes an increase in blood pressure above a person's baseline pressure typically. However, even if it doesn't help with this study, checking blood pressure periodically might be important for just about all apnea suffers and since such readers are becoming increasingly inexpensive and the effects of sleep apnea over time can lead to hypertension.
I also have been trying a similar interface setup now that I recently recieved a loaner machine and my nasal aire II's. I'm using a remstar auto (no cflex ability), nasal aire II, and the aveo TSD. I've also noticed benefits too, tho I still require pressure of 7 to 14, as far as I can tell.
Please keep us up on your progress with this idea as your personal expericences with this interface configuration is invaluable to me and I'm sure many others.
Thanks and good luck snork,
stryker5777
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cflex, DME, auto
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cflex, DME, auto
I remember reading on here that if you goto your dme (or perhaps one your doc associates with) and you have a script for a oxy meter that they will give it to you to borrow for free. I remember them saying that dmes do not have a insurance code for this item, so they typically don't charge. However I have not personally done this so I can't be sure if they're correct or not.
OR ebay sometimes sell cheap oximeters that could be used for home sleep studies, but computer interface software is very expensive and difficult to find. I was told by one vendor that getting a oximeter printer is probably the most cost effective way to go. I wasn't able to find a combo of the two of them tho. Perhaps you will have more luck. Most oximeters that I found online intended for sleep labs over night recording w/ software is in the range of $1,000-$1,400.
Spot checkers probably wouldn't help as oxygen levels only take a few minutes to recover or drop, as far as I know. However, blood pressure monitoring may be beneficial as the effects of sleep apnea might be apparent in your blood pressure scores. Perhaps when one wakes up in the morning before they move out of bed. Not sure if spot checking in this manner helps here or how long an apnea event causes an increase in blood pressure above a person's baseline pressure typically. However, even if it doesn't help with this study, checking blood pressure periodically might be important for just about all apnea suffers and since such readers are becoming increasingly inexpensive and the effects of sleep apnea over time can lead to hypertension.
I also have been trying a similar interface setup now that I recently recieved a loaner machine and my nasal aire II's. I'm using a remstar auto (no cflex ability), nasal aire II, and the aveo TSD. I've also noticed benefits too, tho I still require pressure of 7 to 14, as far as I can tell.
Please keep us up on your progress with this idea as your personal expericences with this interface configuration is invaluable to me and I'm sure many others.
Thanks and good luck snork,
stryker5777
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cflex, DME, auto
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cflex, DME, auto
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Sleepless on LI
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Long Island, New York
Snork,
Stryker is right. The DME does not charge for the overnight use of an oximeter, although I get the feeling that one nigiht is not exactly what you're looking for. But if my insurance company/DME didn't charge when I had mine back in October, then yours shouldn't ("shouldn't"" being the key operative word here), either.
Stryker is right. The DME does not charge for the overnight use of an oximeter, although I get the feeling that one nigiht is not exactly what you're looking for. But if my insurance company/DME didn't charge when I had mine back in October, then yours shouldn't ("shouldn't"" being the key operative word here), either.
L o R i
teeth tenderness
I will have to pursue the borrowed oximeter approach. Of course my DME has yet to EVER return a phone call and there is no sign of the Remstar auto I dropped off there 4 months ago for warranty service, and they PROMISED they would call me back yesterday afternoon after I called for status yesterday, and of course they never did. Sooooo....I am not sure how much "customer service" I can get for a special request like this.
One side effect I note from the Aveo that I keep forgetting to mention. My lower front teeth have been feeling a bit tender for a couple of hours if I use it most or all of the night, as I did last night. I do wish it had a a bit of a spot for the teeth to rest. I shall see if this is something that I adapt to or its an ongoing irritation.
I want to get as many details out on this, positives and negatives, so people can draw their own conclusions for their own situation.
One side effect I note from the Aveo that I keep forgetting to mention. My lower front teeth have been feeling a bit tender for a couple of hours if I use it most or all of the night, as I did last night. I do wish it had a a bit of a spot for the teeth to rest. I shall see if this is something that I adapt to or its an ongoing irritation.
I want to get as many details out on this, positives and negatives, so people can draw their own conclusions for their own situation.
Remember:
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
What you read above is only one data point based on one person's opinion.
I am not a doctor, nor do I even play one on TV.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow ANY advice or opinions at your own risk.
Not everything you read is true.
-
bonnietrussel@hotmail.com
Re: Aveo TSD - a different approach
I would like to know how to get this my dr. Told me about it today. I am so tired of cpap I am waking at least 20/30 times a night.
Re: Aveo TSD - a different approach
Bonnie,
The fact that there have been no posts about this device for the past 4-5 years sets off my skeptic meter strongly. If it were very helpful for many people, wouldn't there be a lot more posts?
The fact that there have been no posts about this device for the past 4-5 years sets off my skeptic meter strongly. If it were very helpful for many people, wouldn't there be a lot more posts?
_________________
| Mask: FlexiFit HC432 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear |
| Additional Comments: started out with Optlife Nasal Pillows with chin strap |