Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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roster
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Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by roster » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:11 am

Even titrations at the best sleep labs often prescribe settings that result in poor therapy.

Why is this?

First, the patient in the sleep lab is sleeping in a strange environment, with many devices connected to him, and with people observing him through cameras and listening to him through microphones. The patient often arrives with considerable anxiety and this may continue throughout the night. The room, the bed, the pillows, the bed covers, and the room temperature and relative humidity are often very different to what he is accustomed to at home. Also, the patient is likely using CPAP for the first time and is experiencing some discomfort because he has not adjusted to the mask or the pressure. This means more anxiety.

Second, with all these problems the sleep lab only has one night to get the settings right. And these are settings the patient is going to use for many, many nights.

The bottom line is the patient is unlikely to sleep in the lab as he does at home and the pressure settings determined during the lab titration may not produce an optimal therapy at home. With improper settings the patient is setup to be a failure, to struggle with CPAP, and in many cases to abandon CPAP altogether.

What is the solution to this problem?

For many people the solution has been to obtain a “fully data-capable” machine with software to monitor their breathing while sleeping at home. The software will produce a daily report giving breathing details throughout the night on a time line graph. These patients can see data on apneas, hypopneas, snores, mask leak, pressure, etc. throughout the night.

By observing this data over days, weeks, and even months the patient can make sure his therapy is working well. With a little self-education and some support from experienced CPAPers, the patient can make adjustments to his mask, his sleeping position, and his CPAP settings to achieve a healthy CPAP therapy.

Below is an extract of a report from one patient’s data. This patient is using the CPAP settings prescribed by his sleep lab. Note that the patient had an AI (Apnea Index or OA) of 3.9 over 9 hours. This is 35 apneas for the night and it means the patient stopped breathing 35 times and was awakened 35 times to restart breathing. How do you like being awakened in the middle of the night by a wrong phone number? What if it happened 35 times in a night?

Note also that the patient had a significant amount of hypopneas (H) and snores (VS).

Image


Now below is an extract of the same patient’s data a few weeks later. In the interim the patient has gradually adjusted his CPAP settings and made some other changes. Each time an adjustment was made the data was reviewed the next morning to observe the effect of the adjustment. Making small adjustments over several nights, the patient eventually achieved an optimal therapy. Note that for this night his AI (OA) was 0.4 or only 3 apneas for the night compared to 35 apneas using the lab-prescribed settings. The patient had a minimal number of hypopneas and flow limitations (FL) and no snores.


Image



The patient reports a much improved level of energy, no sleepiness during the day, and less irritability. This patient was able to lose weight, bring his blood-sugar levels into the normal range down from prediabetic range, and increase his level of exercise from moderate to strenuous.

So what about you? Do you want to manage your therapy with or without the software?
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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roster
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by roster » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:12 am

I encourage others who feel strongly about having one's own software to post "before and after" reports.
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by kteague » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:02 pm

I totally agree. Would love to post data from before tweaking and after tweaking. Problem is, I spent 5 months failing CPAP but my bare bones machines couldn't tell me why or what to to do about it. I did need my pressure bumped up a bit, but since my biggest issue was overuse and misuse of the ramp feature (which I don't think is a part of the reported data) I think I still would have been in the dark about how to make that aspect better. That's where experience and common sense came in. Woulda been nice if my ex-doctor could have applied some of that.

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by mayondair » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:10 pm

Great post Rooster, those graphs could have been mine. Think I'll send a copy to my sleep doc, she' listens, maybe it will help the next newbie. kathy
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by jnk » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:04 pm

roster wrote:Even titrations at the best sleep labs often prescribe settings that result in poor therapy.
I assume that statement is based on anecdotal evidence? Which best labs often prescribe bad settings, specifically? How often? What is the documented percentage?

I agree with the value of home-machine data (particularly leak data when starting out) and software--espcecially for patients who continue to be sleepy and tired--and I am always pro-education.

But I would still have a hard time signing off on the statement that the best labs often blow the settings, myself, without multiple reputable sources backing it up.

More ro(o)sterized hyperbole?

You could be right. It obviously happens now and then. But still. It would be a shame to dog the pros at the good labs if they almost always get the settings right, wouldn't it?
Last edited by jnk on Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by LinkC » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:11 pm

roster wrote:I encourage others who feel strongly about having one's own software to post "before and after" reports.
OK, how do I post a report from "before" I had my own software???

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by jnk » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:16 pm

LinkC wrote:
roster wrote:I encourage others who feel strongly about having one's own software to post "before and after" reports.
OK, how do I post a report from "before" I had my own software???
The first time you used the software, wouldn't that then document the settings you were using before you used the software to tweak the settings, maybe?

I do, however, applaud all attempts to give our beloved ro(o)ster a hard time.

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roster
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by roster » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:27 pm

jnk wrote: It would be a shame to dog the pros at the good labs if they almost always get the settings right, wouldn't it?

Your ability to read and discern is quite lacking today.

Anyone with average abilities can very easily see that I took careful steps to show why the titration night is setup for failure just by its very nature. It has nothing to do with the technicians.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by jnk » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:01 pm

roster wrote:
jnk wrote: It would be a shame to dog the pros at the good labs if they almost always get the settings right, wouldn't it?

Your ability to read and discern is quite lacking today.

Anyone with average abilities can very easily see that I took careful steps to show why the titration night is setup for failure just by its very nature. It has nothing to do with the technicians.
Thank you for your estimate of my reading and discernment abilities. I will be sure to give that all due consideration.

As best I can tell, though, based on the deeply flawed abilities that I lack, all that you actually did was to take careful steps to list things that, according to your personal opinion, seem to be a basis for your personal assumption that those factors OFTEN negate the value of titrations at good labs/centers that are then used by knowledgeable, experienced doctors as a tool for prescribing a pressure.

It is your right to do that. But it is my right to characterize what you have done, based on MY opinion. Right?

It is my understanding that a number of docs tack on an extra cm or two to the pressure found by the tech anyway, in case the lab caught them on a particularly GOOD night. It is having a particularly GOOD night at the lab on the night of the titration that would increase the likelihood of a too-low Rx, in my personal opinion, not being nervous or being in a strange bed causing a BAD night. And the main danger there is too little sleep time. If the patient gets into supine REM, I can think of no reason that the factors you mention would matter in the value of the titration. But hey, what do I know?

I have the highest respect for what good labs/centers do, and it is my position that I would hesitate to seem to imply that what they do is of no value whatsoever, even if that would seem to help my personal argument for the usefulness of home-machine data and software.

But hey, that's just me. Do what you want.

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roster
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by roster » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:10 pm

jnk wrote: But hey, that's just me.
You do a lot of damage if you dissuade just one naive patient from getting a data-capable machine and software by your musings which seem to be only to show how smart (you think) you are.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by jnk » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:26 pm

roster wrote:
jnk wrote: But hey, that's just me.
You do a lot of damage if you dissuade just one naive patient from getting a data-capable machine and software by your musings which seem to be only to show how smart (you think) you are.
True that.

But it could also do damage to dissuade just one naive patient from listening to professionals he has hired to help him with his health, in my opinion. And it could do damage for one patient with central tendencies or PLMs to turn down a titration because he thought they were worthless.

I think that ideally every patient should get a full-data machine and use the software to monitor his own therapy, but that is regardless of how valuable the titration night is/was.

I will gladly join you in dogging bad labs and bad pros. But I still think that good labs and good pros do patients a valuable service with a good titration. And I consider the titration the most valuable sleep study that is done, since it documents reaction to pressure and screens for multiple related and unrelated conditions.

Maybe that opinion makes me stupid and naive. I don't know. But it is still what I think.

And I hope there is room for that opinion in your thread, my friend.

If not, I will gladly oblige any request for this dummy to stay out of your threads, if I just mess them up with my drivel.

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by GTOJim » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:49 pm

The titrated pressure from my sleep study was to low.

After 1 1/2 years of CPAP use and not feeling any better I made an appointment with a sleep doc, requested a second sleep study. Explained I wasn't feeling any better, I actually felt worse. The Doc refused, no reason given.

I'm a night owl, normally stay up to 1am or later. The latest check in for the sleep lab was 10pm, the study ended around 5am, everyone had to be out the door by 6am. It was a split night study, after getting me hooked up to CPAP they insisted I had to sleep on my back. I never sleep on my back, trying to sleep on my back sure didn't help.
Plus the mask the tech fitted me with was so tight it was painful. When I got home from the lab I slept for 5 hours.

Then I discovered this forum and started reading. I purchased an auto CPAP and software, turns out my titrated pressure was set to low, not surprising to me, I hardley slept during the study.

I have a different sleep doc I see once a year, he provides my prescriptions as necessary for CPAP equipment and supplies. He doesn't mind that I tweak my pressure or my wife's.

Two years ago my wife joined me as a hose head, during her sleep study the lab wasn't able to determine her pressure, her apnea was severe in the 90's. I ended up tweaking her pressure and her AHI is below 5.

As Roster pointed out a sleep study is a one night snap shot, the results are not always optimum.

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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by jnk » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:01 pm

GTOJim wrote:a sleep study is a one night snap shot, the results are not always optimum.
Well said, IMO.

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roster
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by roster » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:10 pm

jnk wrote:
GTOJim wrote:a sleep study is a one night snap shot, the results are not always optimum.
Well said, IMO.

Now jnk agrees with me after he "stunk up" the thread.
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Re: Why I always insist on a data-capable machine and software

Post by DocWeezy » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:26 pm

I must have misread the original post, because I took it to mean that because of all of the issues mentioned, a single night titration study may not be an accurate enough snapshot and that close monitoring at home helps to fine tune everything. I didn't see it as advocating for eliminating a titration study but supplementing the titration study, particularly for people whose doctors do not closely follow up for the first few months and who are thrown into the wilderness on their own.

Anyway, my titration study was done at a very good sleep lab and my sleep doc is VERY good and I actually like him. However, even the doc admitted that the only thing my particular titration study was good for was to document that xpap therapy would work because that had gotten about 10 minutes or so of lower apnea sleep (AHI was 56 during the first study and I had no deep sleep stages then either). I had no REM or deep sleep during the titration study, and only about 60 minutes of sleep total and that was spread over about 4 hours. Not a good night.

The doctor admitted he was starting me on a range based on a guess: 4 to 10. The few minutes of lower apnea sleep were at a pressure of 8 but I woke up in a panic when the pressure was raised. He also wanted me to come back in a week to see how it was going. During that time, I learned an incredible amount from this place and started tweaking my own pressures. When I went back in a week, I told him what I had done and showed him the results--AHI was down to about 5 or 6. He was thrilled.

Went back two weeks later and showed him the data and the fact that I had found my sweet spot and had the AHIs down to 1 or under every night using a range of 9.4 to 13 and EPR of 3. Showed him the progression and how every change made a difference.

Bottom line? Without having a data capable machine and the information learned here, it would have taken well over a month to even find the right pressures, which would have delayed things even longer (I struggled mightily with claustrophobia issues and the low starting pressure made it worse). So instead of getting one thing tuned in and out of the way, I would have continued to struggle with both pressure AND claustrophobia issues for much longer than I did.

Plus, seeing the data every day made it easier to keep at it because I wanted to see if the next night would be better, especially when I started tweaking the pressures. That type of personal challenge kept me going through the worst of the claustrophobia and panic attack times and if I had had just a brick with no data, I don't know if I could have stuck with it.

Just my experience in this matter....and I lucked out because the DME ONLY provided data-capable top of the line machines. I wouldn't have known enough at that time to ask about data capability because I hadn't found this place yet--it all happened so fast I hadn't done much research at all.

Weezy

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