Pardon my presumption, but a Tapir being an animal with a hose adaptor built right in, I suppose that would be the proper designation for those lucky people who get to wrap their heads with packing tape and other creative alternatives every night in an effort to avoid mouth leakage while on the hose. Maybe there is a fancy way to pronouce it, but I just say "taper".
I know that Will Succeed has been able to learn to keep his mouth shut (at least while sleeping) and was able to wean himself off of chin straps and tape.
With tape I feel that I have achieved a stable point. I don't feel or don't notice that I am struggling to breath through my mouth against the tape. My thought was, maybe I have too learned. So I tried twice to sleep without tape and wasn't evern able to really fall asleep. As soon as I started to drop off, the air started going out my mouth.
I know there are others out there - Rested Gal is one - who also are Tapirs. Just wondering if any others have every tried to wean themselves of the tape, what success or lack they've had and if they have any suggestions.
Attention all Tapirs
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rested gal
- Posts: 12881
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dkeat and me...
happy as can be...
two little tapirs
under a tree.
http://www.tapir.org/about_tapir.html
happy as can be...
two little tapirs
under a tree.
http://www.tapir.org/about_tapir.html
David:
I have also learned to "keep my mouth shut" as WILLSUCCEED has done! However i learned to do it many years ago (11) and i have found it is a bit more difficult with certain masks and pressures (mine is 18 cm H20)! However it can be done IMO pretty much successfully if you keep at training yourself to do it as WILLSUCCEED and I have done!
Best to you,
steve,
ufo13
I have also learned to "keep my mouth shut" as WILLSUCCEED has done! However i learned to do it many years ago (11) and i have found it is a bit more difficult with certain masks and pressures (mine is 18 cm H20)! However it can be done IMO pretty much successfully if you keep at training yourself to do it as WILLSUCCEED and I have done!
Best to you,
steve,
ufo13
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rested gal
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Glad you were able to conquer mouth air leaks, ufo. Sure makes things easier and treatment more effective, to not have treatment air gushing out the mouth, or puffing out from between closed lips. It's where the tongue stays during the relaxation of sleep that determines if someone is going to be a mouth air leaker or not, even if the jaw is up and even if teeth are clenched tight shut.
There are two places the tongue can be to create a seal against air leaks out the mouth. Most common is front (or most) of the tongue pressed up against the hard palate -- roof of mouth in front. Tip of tongue against, or close to, the incisors (front teeth.) An alternate good sealing place for the tongue is lolled way back in the mouth, blocking the entrance to the throat. In that rear sealing position, the mouth can even be hanging open and the tongue will still seal off cpap air from escaping.
For many people, simply keeping the jaw and mouth closed does keep their tongue in a sealing position, either forward or back, during the full relaxation of sleep. Doesn't work for me.
Some people have reported eventually curing their mouth breathing. I tried and tried. Thought I had it licked (no pun intended!) but alas, during the months after I posted my optimistic report of how it was going, there were just too many nights of too many sporadic leaks. See this link: Mouthleak Training Wheels
This interesting old thread started by snork1 -- yes, mouth leaks again...a new variation was the inspiration causing me to trip (literally!!) merrily down the path of trying to seal the leaks as nature intended.
I finally went back to taping and do that every night. I need to work again on a DIY mouthguard. Dog found the one that worked as well as tape for me. He thought the teethmarks in it were an invitation to add his own. Next one I made wasn't as effective. Tape is simple for me to use, night after night.
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool tapir!!
There are two places the tongue can be to create a seal against air leaks out the mouth. Most common is front (or most) of the tongue pressed up against the hard palate -- roof of mouth in front. Tip of tongue against, or close to, the incisors (front teeth.) An alternate good sealing place for the tongue is lolled way back in the mouth, blocking the entrance to the throat. In that rear sealing position, the mouth can even be hanging open and the tongue will still seal off cpap air from escaping.
For many people, simply keeping the jaw and mouth closed does keep their tongue in a sealing position, either forward or back, during the full relaxation of sleep. Doesn't work for me.
Some people have reported eventually curing their mouth breathing. I tried and tried. Thought I had it licked (no pun intended!) but alas, during the months after I posted my optimistic report of how it was going, there were just too many nights of too many sporadic leaks. See this link: Mouthleak Training Wheels
This interesting old thread started by snork1 -- yes, mouth leaks again...a new variation was the inspiration causing me to trip (literally!!) merrily down the path of trying to seal the leaks as nature intended.
I finally went back to taping and do that every night. I need to work again on a DIY mouthguard. Dog found the one that worked as well as tape for me. He thought the teethmarks in it were an invitation to add his own. Next one I made wasn't as effective. Tape is simple for me to use, night after night.
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool tapir!!
Hi Laura,rested gal wrote:dkeat and me...
happy as can be...
two little tapirs
under a tree.
http://www.tapir.org/about_tapir.html
Where did you get that picture? I thought we were alone? For all the rest out there - I am the cute one on the left. ROTFLOL.
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"Who was that masked man?"
See, now that's what I wanted to know. What exactly did you DO? How do you train your tongue to be civil? Will Succeed said something about walking around all day with his tongue on the roof of his mouth and his mouth closed. I am sure it worked for him - my problem is that without the CPAP pressure splinting my nostrils open I would suffocate if I had to breathe through my nose. So that one is out for me. Thanks for any tips you might have.ufo13 wrote:David:
I have also learned to "keep my mouth shut" as WILLSUCCEED has done! However i learned to do it many years ago (11) and i have found it is a bit more difficult with certain masks and pressures (mine is 18 cm H20)! However it can be done IMO pretty much successfully if you keep at training yourself to do it as WILLSUCCEED and I have done!
Best to you,
steve,
ufo13
_________________
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"Who was that masked man?"
The method I used to learn was this:
First thing is to learn how to seal off your breath with your lips open. Too many people concentrate on keeping their lips clamped closed. Your tongue is the key. Learn the right position for it and you won't breath out your mouth even with your jaw relaxed. So for me the posisiton is, my tongue right behind my upper teeth. If I put it there it pushes the tongue back enough to block any air flow through my mouth. This may be different for other people, so position your tongue until you get the seal. Let your jaw lower and keep your tongue there. If you are breathing through your nose then you found the right position.
Now you need to practice like Will did. Be concious of where your tognue tip is as you go throught the day. Open your lips and keep breathing through your nose. Let your jaw relax and keep breathing through your nose.
I used a chin strap not to hold my mouth shut but actually to help me remember where to put my tongue. Again it was probably just me but I sort of tuned myself into the idea that if my tongue wasn't in the right place my chin strap felt uncomfortable.
The biggest step is to go tapeless and you will mouth breath. But when you do just put your tongue where you already know it works. Do this often enough and you will start doing it in your sleep. It will become your reaction to mouth breathing.
The key is the awareness where your tongue tip is. Learn something simple, where does it work and pay close attention to it. You will get to the point that if it isn't in its proper piosition you won't feel right even during the day
Oh and David I bet youa ctually breath out of your nose most of the day even without CPAP.
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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): seal
First thing is to learn how to seal off your breath with your lips open. Too many people concentrate on keeping their lips clamped closed. Your tongue is the key. Learn the right position for it and you won't breath out your mouth even with your jaw relaxed. So for me the posisiton is, my tongue right behind my upper teeth. If I put it there it pushes the tongue back enough to block any air flow through my mouth. This may be different for other people, so position your tongue until you get the seal. Let your jaw lower and keep your tongue there. If you are breathing through your nose then you found the right position.
Now you need to practice like Will did. Be concious of where your tognue tip is as you go throught the day. Open your lips and keep breathing through your nose. Let your jaw relax and keep breathing through your nose.
I used a chin strap not to hold my mouth shut but actually to help me remember where to put my tongue. Again it was probably just me but I sort of tuned myself into the idea that if my tongue wasn't in the right place my chin strap felt uncomfortable.
The biggest step is to go tapeless and you will mouth breath. But when you do just put your tongue where you already know it works. Do this often enough and you will start doing it in your sleep. It will become your reaction to mouth breathing.
The key is the awareness where your tongue tip is. Learn something simple, where does it work and pay close attention to it. You will get to the point that if it isn't in its proper piosition you won't feel right even during the day
Oh and David I bet youa ctually breath out of your nose most of the day even without CPAP.
_________________
CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): seal
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Guest
David:
Before i could get back to you, i read rested gal's post and she gives some very good tips on the situation! Then i read mikemoran's excellent post which also covers just about everything i was going to say to you! The only thing i can add is while getting ready to go to sleep with the cpap working, i try to relax and concentrate on the tongue at top of the mouth position MIKE and LAURA speak of, and after a period of time - days, weeks etc it finally became automatic for me. I don't know if it is a mind over matter thing but it works most of the time. The other thing MIKE said and i agree is when you get it right you can actually feel the seal of your tongue at your throat. Of course after you are asleep i guess it is the training or whatever that keeps it there! Occasionally when i do breath thru my mouth i know it the next morning or when i awaken and my throat is dry and my lips are a little puffy etc.
Hope this helps you,
steve,
ufo13
Before i could get back to you, i read rested gal's post and she gives some very good tips on the situation! Then i read mikemoran's excellent post which also covers just about everything i was going to say to you! The only thing i can add is while getting ready to go to sleep with the cpap working, i try to relax and concentrate on the tongue at top of the mouth position MIKE and LAURA speak of, and after a period of time - days, weeks etc it finally became automatic for me. I don't know if it is a mind over matter thing but it works most of the time. The other thing MIKE said and i agree is when you get it right you can actually feel the seal of your tongue at your throat. Of course after you are asleep i guess it is the training or whatever that keeps it there! Occasionally when i do breath thru my mouth i know it the next morning or when i awaken and my throat is dry and my lips are a little puffy etc.
Hope this helps you,
steve,
ufo13
_________________
| Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear |
| Additional Comments: Also use ResMed N30 and ResMed P30i |
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rested gal
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- Location: Tennessee
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Severeena
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You are a mouth breather and maybe you should look into a full face mask.
My disease makes me feel claustrophobic at times and Tom talks me through it.
I like my full face mask.
My disease makes me feel claustrophobic at times and Tom talks me through it.
I like my full face mask.
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Sharon
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not until thine own understanding ..... Proverbs 3:5-
Not all Masks work for everyone. Each Person is Different.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not until thine own understanding ..... Proverbs 3:5-
Not all Masks work for everyone. Each Person is Different.
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Sleepless on LI
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 6:46 pm
- Location: Long Island, New York
First of all, Laura, LOL x 1000000. The roll of tape is the best part in that tapir photo, besides those precious little fellas. But seeing that tape roll in the corner...
David, I, too, was able to stop Tegaderming my mouth at night on the Aura, after being on the Swift. Like Steve mentioned, certain masks seem to deliver the pressure in different ways and caused my mouth breathing to be worse. I don't remember ever having a problem with it with the Active or the Aura, but did with the Swift. Actually, that was the only time I had a problem was with the Swift.
Have you continued using the Aura or are you using something else? Also, the auto setting definitely helps as it keeps the pressure lower usually than the CPAP guaranteed setting.
Also, try the tongue positioning any time that you can think of doing it during the day. The more you train yourself to keep your tongue there all the time, the more likely you will be to normally do it, even during your sleep. It is also important to keep your cheeks deflated as you hold your tongue in the right spot. If you allow air to enter the area between your teeth and cheeks, there goes any seal you will achieve.
My advice is practice, practice, practice. I never thought you could train yourself to do this, but you can. Well, at least some people get luck and end up being able to.
David, I, too, was able to stop Tegaderming my mouth at night on the Aura, after being on the Swift. Like Steve mentioned, certain masks seem to deliver the pressure in different ways and caused my mouth breathing to be worse. I don't remember ever having a problem with it with the Active or the Aura, but did with the Swift. Actually, that was the only time I had a problem was with the Swift.
Have you continued using the Aura or are you using something else? Also, the auto setting definitely helps as it keeps the pressure lower usually than the CPAP guaranteed setting.
Also, try the tongue positioning any time that you can think of doing it during the day. The more you train yourself to keep your tongue there all the time, the more likely you will be to normally do it, even during your sleep. It is also important to keep your cheeks deflated as you hold your tongue in the right spot. If you allow air to enter the area between your teeth and cheeks, there goes any seal you will achieve.
My advice is practice, practice, practice. I never thought you could train yourself to do this, but you can. Well, at least some people get luck and end up being able to.
L o R i
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snork2
Sork1 here....I just can't get recognized by the forum.
Funny, but I was going to say "practice practice practice" but then I read the latest post.... guess thats been covered too.
Do anything you can to "train". Give yourself a minute or two before settling in for the night, but with the CPAP on and practice turning the air off and on, coming out of your mouth, but with your mouth open the whole time.
Chin straps didn't do much for me, and i get a nice bright rash from tape, even hypoallergenic and non-latex.
I am now on REV2 of my DIY tongue guide, per someones idea, trying to make it simpler and figure out the essence of why it works so well. First one was made by "splicing" a ramp/shelf onto a boil and bite mouthguard, this new one is made by just twisting and severely deforming a single one with no splices and only a bit of trimming.
I am starting to notice a trend from using the tongue guide that my tongue seems to more naturally just find its way into the correct position. I was noticing as I played around with shaping my current revision of tongue guide that it could be pretty sloppy about it staying in place and almost seems more a matter of reminding my tongue of where it needs to go (i.e. up to the roof of my mouth and slightly back) and being wide enough so I don't choke or swallow the guide, than a hard hold on my tongue.
Maybe eventually I will join the Natural Tapir club, if I can create a GOOD HABIT. (versus all my bad habits...haha)
Funny, but I was going to say "practice practice practice" but then I read the latest post.... guess thats been covered too.
Do anything you can to "train". Give yourself a minute or two before settling in for the night, but with the CPAP on and practice turning the air off and on, coming out of your mouth, but with your mouth open the whole time.
Chin straps didn't do much for me, and i get a nice bright rash from tape, even hypoallergenic and non-latex.
I am now on REV2 of my DIY tongue guide, per someones idea, trying to make it simpler and figure out the essence of why it works so well. First one was made by "splicing" a ramp/shelf onto a boil and bite mouthguard, this new one is made by just twisting and severely deforming a single one with no splices and only a bit of trimming.
I am starting to notice a trend from using the tongue guide that my tongue seems to more naturally just find its way into the correct position. I was noticing as I played around with shaping my current revision of tongue guide that it could be pretty sloppy about it staying in place and almost seems more a matter of reminding my tongue of where it needs to go (i.e. up to the roof of my mouth and slightly back) and being wide enough so I don't choke or swallow the guide, than a hard hold on my tongue.
Maybe eventually I will join the Natural Tapir club, if I can create a GOOD HABIT. (versus all my bad habits...haha)