OT. This is how BP is making efforts to stop the oil spill

[IsrvChrist]

Wow I say something bad about the savior of the world, or at least the American Unions, and it because a religious thing.

All I was saying is that Obama could have, and can do more. He is so worried about making BP pay that he is refusing to allow any other help, even to those "little" people in the gulf. I am saying worry about the cost latter. I think the US government cant eat the cost more then those fishermen and such that are unable to work. Aren't we as citations suppose to help each other out? AS I said in my post

I think BP should pay, and pay big

I just don't think that they are the only responsible party. I don't know any other reason why they are the only one being gone after.

This is not a religious thing, this is not a political thing. To me right now this isn't even a environmental thing. This is about getting the people help that need it. Please quote your source that out of 13 countries (including the UN) that only "4 skimmers" were offered.

I must admit, that I was a little behind on my post, and my story, because he has recently excepted the offer of help of the Dutch government. They alone are sending 4 skimmers.

Again. Four skimmers, a thousand skimmers ... it ain't gonna make a squat of difference. The damage is done.

It all comes down this this. I don't care who is in office, I don't care who spilled the oil. I just think we need to face the fact that we need help. Right now (IMHO) Obama needs to be the man. He needs to be the one that is taking care of this situation, if he gets help then he wont look as big then.

I really don't want to turn this into a political debate. Although it might already be to late. But please don't make this a Christian non-Christian thing. Granted that my Christian views are going to direct my feelings, just as you convictions are going to direct yours.

1 person cleaning the gulf, thousands of people working the golf "it ain't gonna make a squat of difference. The damage is done". Why even bother. Lets just close off the part of the US.

You just don't get it. It can't be cleaned up.

Like I said then why even bother?

You are obviously clueless and incapable of understanding the relative scale of the issue, much less the technical aspects of the issue.

... it won't make a squat of difference.

Again I say then why even bother trying?

This isn't a religious thing, and this isn't even a political thing it is about being what relief can be brought to the gulf cost as quickly as it can be brought.

[DreamStalker]

Can always tell when someone doesn't have a logical or compelling argument, the personal insults begin.

So with your theory, why do anything? Why not just say "My bad" and be done with it?

Maybe the money being wasted on the worthless clean up efforts would be better spent on the debt (which I am sure you believe is all Bush's fault...)

It is not a theory. As I said over and over ... the ONLY THING that can be done is to drill the relief well(s) ... period! Your bad! I'm done trying to help you out of your ignorance.

Yes. Money IS being wasted on worthless clean up efforts and would be better spent on helping the people of the Gulf coast to relocate and/or retrain for a different career.

The "current" national debt may be attributed to both Bush and Obama but even more so to the corporate owned US congress.

As for insults, one can only be so kind to a dumb ass before patience runs out ... I'm compelled to conclude my argument that logic is apparently not within your grasp.

Wow I say something bad about the savior of the world, or at least the American Unions, and it because a religious thing.

Isn't that what y'all call blasphemy? ... but what do I know, I don't keep up with that sort'a crap.

All I was saying is that Obama could have, and can do more. He is so worried about making BP pay that he is refusing to allow any other help, even to those "little" people in the gulf. I am saying worry about the cost latter. I think the US government cant eat the cost more then those fishermen and such that are unable to work. Aren't we as citations suppose to help each other out? AS I said in my post

I think BP should pay, and pay big

I just don't think that they are the only responsible party. I don't know any other reason why they are the only one being gone after.

This is not a religious thing, this is not a political thing. To me right now this isn't even a environmental thing. This is about getting the people help that need it. Please quote your source that out of 13 countries (including the UN) that only "4 skimmers" were offered.

I must admit, that I was a little behind on my post, and my story, because he has recently excepted the offer of help of the Dutch government. They alone are sending 4 skimmers.

They could send a thousand skimmers ... so what. I agree the US taxpayer should not have to bail out this oil company but mark my words ... that is exactly what will happen ... a $20 billion escrow is no where near enough to cover the damage ... we're talking TARP numbers here.

Again. Four skimmers, a thousand skimmers ... it ain't gonna make a squat of difference. The damage is done.

It all comes down this this. I don't care who is in office, I don't care who spilled the oil. I just think we need to face the fact that we need help. Right now (IMHO) Obama needs to be the man. He needs to be the one that is taking care of this situation, if he gets help then he wont look as big then.

I really don't want to turn this into a political debate. Although it might already be to late. But please don't make this a Christian non-Christian thing. Granted that my Christian views are going to direct my feelings, just as you convictions are going to direct yours.

Yep you already entered the political debate ... just read your own comments to this thread.

As for the Christian thing ... again, read your own "savior" comment ... a religious-political combo.

1 person cleaning the gulf, thousands of people working the golf "it ain't gonna make a squat of difference. The damage is done". Why even bother. Lets just close off the part of the US.

No need to close off the US ... that will happen on its own as the economy of the affected areas dies off.

You just don't get it. It can't be cleaned up.

Like I said then why even bother?

You are obviously clueless and incapable of understanding the relative scale of the issue, much less the technical aspects of the issue.

... it won't make a squat of difference.

Again I say then why even bother trying?

This isn't a religious thing, and this isn't even a political thing it is about being what relief can be brought to the gulf cost as quickly as it can be brought.

Relief ... like I already said is when the "little" people are provided with the opportunity to relocate and/or retrain for a new way of life.

Also, I should add ... if you really want to help with this issue, educate yourself about world energy use and then learn to conserve energy and support alternative energy initiatives and technology.

[jules]

Yes damage has been done, but the longer the oil drifts and sits the MORE damage is done. The faster it gets cleaned up, the less total damage.

If the hole can't be plugged (for whatever reason) the fact remainas that the sooner the oil gets cleaned up and the more of it that gets collected will lessen the impact. Absolutely not going to "fix" the damage that has been done, but it can avoid additional damage.

You just don't get it. It can't be cleaned up.

The damage will continue to unfold over months and the clean up will take decades (by nature, not man). The only thing that can stop further damage is one or more relief wells.

The side shows you see on TV of clean up crews is like watching a single colony of ants eat a heard of moving elephants ... the media cycle will move onto something different decades before anyone can say the damage has been cleaned up.

The Exxon disaster of 20 years ago was chump change compared to this one and Prince William Sound still has not been cleaned up or recovered.

DS is so damn right in what I put above in red.

Anyone who thinks that a real complete clean up is possible needs to get their head examined. This was a major environmental disaster and there is not going to be adequate let alone complete clean up and the long term repercussions of all of this will not be known for eons.

[OceanGoingGal]

Just plug the damn hole !

So much for "drill baby drill" Sarah

[WilsonVilleUSA]

DS is so damn right in what I put above in red.

Anyone who thinks that a real complete clean up is possible needs to get their head examined. This was a major environmental disaster and there is not going to be adequate let alone complete clean up and the long term repercussions of all of this will not be known for eons.

I don't think anyone is expecting a "complete" clean up. I certainly am not and no where did I say I was.

As the Exxon disater showed, it will be a problem for years (decades or even century). That doesn't mean that the impact can be reduced. It may not shorten the time of devastation, but it is possible to keep areas that haven't had it come ashore stay that way. Is it cost effective? Maybe not. I absolutely agree that BP needs to foot the bill.

Where DS and I agree is that we should be working to lessen the reliance on fossil fuels and that there is a certain amount of "evil" (if you want to call it that) in corporate America. Lots of evil in politics as well. Interesting to note that just because I made an unsupportive reference to the one, DS assumed I was republican. Both sides here share blame as politics has become business instead of service. Doens't matter what the letter is after the person's name, what matters is that BOTH major parties left the path long ago.

[WearyOne]

WilsonVille and IsrvChrist, you have probably already figured this out, but if you want a good civil debate, don't count on it from DreamStalker. Unfortunately, he (as also do several others here) has a hard time factually debating WITHOUT resorting to name calling and mud slinging. I was actually able to carry on a minor little debate with him about something a while back. Although we disagreed somewhat, he made his points without name calling and mud slinging. It's so much easier to see someone else's point of view when they can do it without trying to tear apart the person who posted what is disagreed with. Debating with someone like that, to me, just isn't worth it. They could turn out to be right, but I don't want to put up with all the garbage talk to see if maybe they are.

I'm leaving this thread to those better up to the challenge!

[DreamStalker]

DS is so damn right in what I put above in red.

Anyone who thinks that a real complete clean up is possible needs to get their head examined. This was a major environmental disaster and there is not going to be adequate let alone complete clean up and the long term repercussions of all of this will not be known for eons.

I don't think anyone is expecting a "complete" clean up. I certainly am not and no where did I say I was.

As the Exxon disater showed, it will be a problem for years (decades or even century). That doesn't mean that the impact can be reduced. It may not shorten the time of devastation, but it is possible to keep areas that haven't had it come ashore stay that way. Is it cost effective? Maybe not. I absolutely agree that BP needs to foot the bill.

Where DS and I agree is that we should be working to lessen the reliance on fossil fuels and that there is a certain amount of "evil" (if you want to call it that) in corporate America. Lots of evil in politics as well. Interesting to note that just because I made an unsupportive reference to the one, DS assumed I was republican. Both sides here share blame as politics has become business instead of service. Doens't matter what the letter is after the person's name, what matters is that BOTH major parties left the path long ago.

Well I apologize for insulting you with my assumption that you were a Republican.

However, you seemed to make the assumption that I'm a Democrat (although I could have read that wrong). Well ok, maybe I was before I realized many years ago that Dems and GOP are just two sides of the same coin.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that the "clean up" attempts are insignificant relative to the damage caused by the spill. Most of that damage has occurred and continues to occur within the water column and marshes (and later this year, the reefs of the Florida Keys). Sure, tar balls can be cleaned off the beaches over the next few years ... that is how long I recall it took on the Texas beaches after the Ixtoc blowout back in '79. But the marine life will take longer to recover and some of it never will (the Mississippi Delta is a much more complex ecosystem than the Texas coast). Many/most businesses dependent on the northern Gulf ecosystem will go out of business regardless of how much oil reaches the shorlines or how well they can clean tar balls off the beaches or prevent them from making landfall (there is a whole lot more to the economy there than beach tourism). As the volatiles evaporate from the water suspended oil (how the tar balls form), the denser oil components will sink and mix with the gulf sediments affecting the benthic ecosystem for centuries, being reworked and brought to the surface every time a hurricane whips through.

Yes. We are in agreement with the later part of your post.

WilsonVille and IsrvChrist, you have probably already figured this out, but if you want a good civil debate, don't count on it from DreamStalker. Unfortunately, he (as also do several others here) has a hard time factually debating WITHOUT resorting to name calling and mud slinging. I was actually able to carry on a minor little debate with him about something a while back. Although we disagreed somewhat, he made his points without name calling and mud slinging. It's so much easier to see someone else's point of view when they can do it without trying to tear apart the person who posted what is disagreed with. Debating with someone like that, to me, just isn't worth it. They could turn out to be right, but I don't want to put up with all the garbage talk to see if maybe they are.

I'm leaving this thread to those better up to the challenge!

You forgot to tell them about the forum foe feature

[IsrvChrist]

I agree damage is done, and there is nothing that can be done. What I am saying is we need to except help. We need to offer help to those in need. Then worry about BP paying for it. Why should these people continue to suffer as Obama, and such goes after BP. Why make them wait? Allow them access to FEMA and such. Just give them the help.

[DreamStalker]

I agree damage is done, and there is nothing that can be done. What I am saying is we need to except help. We need to offer help to those in need. Then worry about BP paying for it. Why should these people continue to suffer as Obama, and such goes after BP. Why make them wait? Allow them access to FEMA and such. Just give them the help.

What we need is to lead the world in non-carbon based alternative energy technology.

Despite the fact that the majority of the northern Gulf coast people vote against their own interest, they certainly do not deserve to suffer. But I assure you that they do not suffer because of Obama's failure to lead in this crisis (and he has indeed failed in my view), they suffer because the oil companies put profit above the risk of people suffering.

To advocate that FEMA or any other federal agency to "just give them help" is political blasphemy to some of the conservative members of this forum (not to mention those of the country). They call it "socialism" or "big brother interfering in people's constitutional rights" or "Obamanation" or "liberal takeover" or "unAmerican" or whatever conservative "mud slinging" they happen to use.

Like I said, the best way to help is to support technology initiatives for energy conservation and alternative energy. It may not help those poor people right now, but it will help their offspring in the future.

[IsrvChrist]

Even when someone agrees with you on a point you need to find something to argue about.

[DreamStalker]

Even when someone agrees with you on a point you need to find something to argue about.

I disagree ...



I meant to correct your implicative statement that Obama was the cause of the people's suffering and then elaborated on the conservative view of your suggestion that the federal government should step in to help these people.

In fact, I totally agree with you that the federal government should step in to help these people get retrained for a new career or to relocate to another coast to carry on their traditional livelihoods. No argument there as that is one of the basic functions of a national government, to help and protect its citizens in a national crisis ... which this catastrophe certainly is.

Look, we will reach "global peak oil" in the next couple of years if we have not already done so this year. Global peak oil is the point in human history at which the maximum rate of oil production is reached. This oil spill catastrophe may well mark this important historical oil concept (just google M. King Hubbert). The giants of China and India have awoken and the appetite for oil of China alone will surpass our own within the next 20 years or so ... unless there is adequate progress in alternative energy and conservation technology, the outlook of the future is truly akin to Armageddon (forget about the climate change disasters facing us, civilization will already have self destructed). That is why I emphasize how we should react to this oil spill to help not just the children of the people of the Gulf coast but all people's children of this planet. Take it as something to argue about if you will, but at least educate yourself about global energy use first ... besides, I warned y'all not to get me started on this.

[mars]

Hi All

Some survivors tell of their experience -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front ... 751392.stm

and also

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and ... 362139.stm

Mars

[mars]

Hi All

The latest from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 934719.htm

I just had a look at the photo gallery on that link - absolutely horrifying. How anyone could drilll for oil, and not be prepared for immediate action for the worst case scenario, is totally beyond me. The whole area is going to be devastated for years and years to come.

Mars

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[DreamStalker]

I'm willing to be that BP is behind the martial law along the gulf coast. Since they are paying the bill they feel they own that coast until they are no longer required to pay bills. I have also read that even the news media is being restricted to access of many parts of the coast as well as the open gulf waters ... so we really don't know how bad it really is except for those who manage to sneak pass the US authorities (representing BP of course not the public).

Obama should have treated this as a corporate terrorist attack on our nation ... but because corporations own our government, the US authorities are aiding and abetting in this disaster. Just go read about the judge who lifted the deep sea drilling moratorium ... the judge has "extensive investments in the oil and gas industry".

This is all really bad mojo ... bad bad bad.

[grady61]

Whats the answer to jobs lost? Just find something else to do?