Surprising Facts about American Health Care

[Nord]

And here I said I didn't want to play... I keep hoping that some enlightenment and goodwill will penetrate.
Maybe its too late for you... a man of the Twentieth Century.

Funny thing. People complain about rising costs of health care, but it's really not going up. If you want to go in and get 1970s care, skipping MRIs, etc., then your costs won't be very high. Costs are higher because people want improvements. And those improvements (from which we all benefit) have been financed by those willing to pay.

...which is why a Canadian friend of mine was quite bummed (American usage) about the passage of the HCR legislation. She liked the way the US subsidized Canada's system so much, and looked forward to continuing improvements that might help her lifelong health issue. She's fortunate to be in Ontario, where she doesn't have to wait 3 years for a new doctor, but she sure has trouble finding a good one.

One thing Canada does better, though, is approval of new techniques. The FDA is a HUGE roadblock to progress in health care....as we all know from xPAPs.

I really didn't want to play this game...
and I made reference to the Age of Enlightenment and Goodwill towards their fellow man...
as a link to the Age when the American Revolution took place...
a time when it was about "fraternatie" (sic) with their fellow man...

Could you clear up for me... your statement... " She liked the way the US subsidized Canada's system so much, and looked forward to continuing improvements that might help her lifelong health issue."
I don't understand how you (she) thinks Canadian HealthCare is subsidized by the US ?? Please be specific...

And finally... I don't think the the FDA is a " huge roadblock " so much as it is a necessary evil.
I would hate to buy something that was insufficiently tested and approved for safety.
Since I am not familiar enough with its' workings... I'm guessing they could defend why they slow the process.

I'm guessing the American Tobacco Industry would want to tell me how safe and good nicotine is for you... perhaps even a cure for something else.

Nord

[Nord]

Did you "really" buy the Republican publicity that many Canadians go to the US for HealthCare... Perhaps I can interest you in some swampland that I can sell you in Florida or maybe a bridge that's been hardly used. Most Canadians just laughed. The only Canadians that I know that have gone to the US for HealthCare are the ones that were sent there for treatment and paid for by the Provincial Government or as an exception...

So my Canadian friends have been lying to me? Were they just on vacation in the states?

Million Dollar athletes who need an operation... yesterday.

All aren't equal?

Paying for better care? Outside the country?!

Other than the commercials paid for by the Republican Party showing a Canadian getting healthcare in the US...
I don't know of any aside from those who are travelling and have no choice.
All the quotes I have found are anecdotal or inaccurate...
why would Canadians go to the US to pay for Healthcare if they are entitled to Healthcare here ??

I have seen some news stories about Americans living close to the border...
coming to Canada (and illegally) obtaining free healthcare here... not that I blame them.

And Million Dollar athletes, or celebrities for that matter, don't consider themselves equal of anyone
(a generalization that is not meant to be accurate for everyone... just to lighten up this heavy subject)

Nord

[Nord]

ps. I wonder why so many complain about the cost of shipping from other countries to Canada? Really?

Why do you think it's so costly?? Is it the Republicans or the Democrats??

Nothing to really comment on...
you don't make any points... ever... really.

BTW: Ask any Canadian (if you don't believe me) about shipping...
its not the Republicans or Democrats or even the Free Market...
its' UPS

Give me the good old United States Postal Service... any day.

Nord

[DreamStalker]

Who will provide health care for these facts? ... you Mr. bird man? This is what unregulated greed looks like!





So sad ....

[roster]

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secularism, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The early liberal thinker John Locke, who is often credited for the creation of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace absolutism in government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property.

Nord

Now you are talking my language Nord. If you are a student of John Locke, we will get along very well. "Liberals" in the U.S. today are not students of John Locke. They have pilfered the word "liberal". In fact you can see in the article you cited, John Locke's philosophy has been renamed "classical liberalism" to distinguish itself from what is called liberalism in the U.S. today.

I will accept reproach almost anytime you can catch me at odds with John Locke's philosophy. (I am somewhat at odds with Locke on his educational philosophy.)

"Bacon, Locke and Newton I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical and Moral sciences." - Thomas Jefferson

Nord, I give you some credit for being a thinking man at times in your posts. Others are only posting excrement as personal attacks and are worthless for discussion and debating. You would do well to leave out the excrement as it only detracts from the arguments you try to make.

Gondring makes an excellent point about Thessalonians. Certainly our nation's foundation goes back much further than 18th century thought. The fundamentals are right there in our holy book.

[roster]

Who will provide health care for these facts? ... you Mr. bird man? This is what unregulated greed looks like!

What about that wonderful federal government that you claim will save us from evils? What have they been doing? Here is what they have been doing,

*While not included in our report, we discovered that the individuals involved in the fraternizing and gift exchange - both government and industry - have often known one another since childhood. Their relationships were formed well before they took their jobs with industry or government.

*a number of MMS employees at the Lake Charles District office admitted to attending sporting events prior to 2007 in which oil and gas production companies sponsored teams, as well as receiving lunches and accepting gifts. Through numerous interviews, we found a culture where the acceptance of gifts from oil and gas companies were widespread throughout that office,

*Two employees at the Lake Charles office also admitted to using illegal drugs during
their employment at MMS. We found that many of the inspectors had e-mails that contained
inappropriate humor and pornography on their government computers. Finally, we determined that between June and July 2008, one MMS inspector conducted four inspections ofiOC platforms while in the process of negotiating and later accepting employment with that company.

The complainant specifically suggested that MMS employees be investigated for
accepting gifts, including hunting and fishing trips, from the Island Operating Company (IOC), an oil and gas production company working on oil platforms regulated by the Department of the Interior

During the course of our investigation, a number of MMS employees at the Lake Charles, LA district office admitted to attending sporting events prior to 2007 in which oil and gas production companies sponsored teams, as well as receiving lunches and accepting gifts. Through numerous interviews, we found that a culture of accepting gifts from oil and gas companies was prevalent throughout the MMS Lake Charles office

During our investigation, two MMS employees at the Lake Charles office admitted to using illegal drugs during their employment at MMS.
http://www.propublica.org/documents/ite ... ocument/p4

Your government is really great at protecting us, eh?

They were in the office stimulating themselves with drugs and pornography while envisioning more hunting and fishing trips and junkets to college football games.

That is what you are lobbying for - a bigger government to take our money and spend it on pornography, drugs and other pleasures. Sure we need another government department to regulate the MMS. And while you are at it, add government departments to stop the hijinks at the SEC, FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FDIC .... well you can almost run through the whole list. Get your bigger government and more regulations. Soon you will have all of us working for the government and looking over each other's shoulders.

No, I say limit the size of the government to end this nonsense. Educate yourself on how the government is wasting your money and get to the voting booth and throw out the corrupt incumbents. Then watch the new ones and be prepared to throw them out.

You are looking for security from your government and you are not getting it.

[Jay K]

So let me see if I got Roster's point. Because there was corruption at MMS, much of which was established under Republican rule, and MMS neglected its responsibilities thereby effectively leaving BP's drilling projects unregulated, we should do away with any governmental oversight and just let BP do its thing unregulated.

Yeah, that would certainly have prevented the oil leak. How about instead electing officials who actually believe in governmental regulation and therefore will take the steps necessary to see it is done?

[timbalionguy]

Roster... You really need a different hobby...

This biased report is by a group that was formed to change Policy and Manage minds:
Here's what they say about who they are...

The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan
public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal
is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and
control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive,
entrepreneurial private sector. Topics include reforms in health care, taxes,
Social Security, welfare, criminal justice, education and environmental
regulation.

I'd say that you have read too many of their articles from this source...
I wonder where their funding comes from... ??

Nord

This indeed is how many problems have been solved here in this country. But certain folks, for well-meaning or for personal gain reasons, got our health care system strangled in laws like the Prescription Drug Act. By controlling access to things like drugs and durable medical equipment to a narrowly defined channel, it discouraged competition, and set up a system whereby health care providers could get wealthy very quickly. Although I can fully understand the protection that things like mandatory prescriptions may provide, they have caused great economic harm in the process. If medical supply companies really had to compete for the patients' business instead of having patients funneled to them, the basic price of health care would likely fall dramatically. If health care were made affordable by removing the greed mechanisms, there would be little need for things like socialized medicine.

[Maple Leaf]

Your government is really great at protecting us, eh?

roster!!!! I've always had a sneaking suspicion you're a Canadian, dressed up as a Yankee all covered in feathers.. EH?

[DreamStalker]

Who will provide health care for these facts? ... you Mr. bird man? This is what unregulated greed looks like!

What about that wonderful federal government that you claim will save us from evils? What have they been doing? Here is what they have been doing,

*While not included in our report, we discovered that the individuals involved in the fraternizing and gift exchange - both government and industry - have often known one another since childhood. Their relationships were formed well before they took their jobs with industry or government.

*a number of MMS employees at the Lake Charles District office admitted to attending sporting events prior to 2007 in which oil and gas production companies sponsored teams, as well as receiving lunches and accepting gifts. Through numerous interviews, we found a culture where the acceptance of gifts from oil and gas companies were widespread throughout that office,

*Two employees at the Lake Charles office also admitted to using illegal drugs during
their employment at MMS. We found that many of the inspectors had e-mails that contained
inappropriate humor and pornography on their government computers. Finally, we determined that between June and July 2008, one MMS inspector conducted four inspections ofiOC platforms while in the process of negotiating and later accepting employment with that company.

The complainant specifically suggested that MMS employees be investigated for
accepting gifts, including hunting and fishing trips, from the Island Operating Company (IOC), an oil and gas production company working on oil platforms regulated by the Department of the Interior

During the course of our investigation, a number of MMS employees at the Lake Charles, LA district office admitted to attending sporting events prior to 2007 in which oil and gas production companies sponsored teams, as well as receiving lunches and accepting gifts. Through numerous interviews, we found that a culture of accepting gifts from oil and gas companies was prevalent throughout the MMS Lake Charles office

During our investigation, two MMS employees at the Lake Charles office admitted to using illegal drugs during their employment at MMS.
http://www.propublica.org/documents/ite ... ocument/p4

Your government is really great at protecting us, eh?

They were in the office stimulating themselves with drugs and pornography while envisioning more hunting and fishing trips and junkets to college football games.

That is what you are lobbying for - a bigger government to take our money and spend it on pornography, drugs and other pleasures. Sure we need another government department to regulate the MMS. And while you are at it, add government departments to stop the hijinks at the SEC, FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FDIC .... well you can almost run through the whole list. Get your bigger government and more regulations. Soon you will have all of us working for the government and looking over each other's shoulders.

No, I say limit the size of the government to end this nonsense. Educate yourself on how the government is wasting your money and get to the voting booth and throw out the corrupt incumbents. Then watch the new ones and be prepared to throw them out.

You are looking for security from your government and you are not getting it.

No. That has been my point all along, which you refuse to or are too stupid to understand. The government is NOT mine or YOURS anymore. OUR government has been stolen by greedy corporations which you and Glen Beck continue to promote for the good of us and the planet ... yet look at what happens when you let "free-market" regulate themselves.




EDUCATE YOURSELF on how our government has been stolen away from me and you!! EDUCATE YOURSELF on why government has failed us ... it is not because government exists but rather because of who controls it ... us or conscienceless corporations that exist only to feed off of you and me. YOU are the one who needs education to unprogram the mindless nonsense that Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh promote on the ignorant (Palinites).

BTW - All the MMS crap that you listed occurred during the administration that YOU voted for! Same goes for government looking over shoulders ... it was the Bush-Cheney criminal gang who instituted cameras in public places, taking your shoes off and x-raying your private parts, collecting your internet and banking business information, etc. etc. under the guise of "terror". A terror promoted upon the American people in order to waste US blood and treasure on a hunting and gathering expedition in Iraq for the oil companies ... and it continues to the tune of $12 billion per month (where is your government debt outcries on that issue?)!! And that does not include the long-term costs of caring for the health of the traumatized veterans into the future. You bird man are misguided and uninformed!

You bird man are the one in need of education. That fact of Bacon, Locke and Newton being the greatest men ever occured only because they had a government that protected them from the anarchy of the barbaric dark ages (free trade in its ultimate state) that preceeded the age of enlightenment. Again, you need to realize that Glen Beck is a historical revisionist, NOT a historian ... he is a self-procalimed rodeo clown. Stop educating yourself with the Fox Network and go to the library and read the real thing!!!!

Yes. The government regulatory agency failed US because it was controlled by BIG OIL. Yes DO vote the corporate-owned incumbants out!


Click here for more of the devastating visuals of oil greed.

Sorry for the late response. I was at my mom's over the weekend making home repairs to her house.

[brain_cloud]

The difference is that in Canada... the government subsidizes its' citizens health by making it available to people that need it... not just those who can afford it.
Nord

Not to get into the political food fight, but this is wrong. The U.S. has a program called Medicaid, which provides insurance to the poor, and most states have additional programs along the same lines.

[Froro]

Okay...I'll clarify it more appropriately.

Our provincial insurance provided by our taxes can not deny medical attention period. Regardless of income, preexisting conditions, clauses in section x, sub section y, paragraph z of a policy.

Have a great one all...I'm out

[roster]

The difference is that in Canada... the government subsidizes its' citizens health by making it available to people that need it... not just those who can afford it.
Nord

Not to get into the political food fight, but this is wrong. The U.S. has a program called Medicaid, which provides insurance to the poor, and most states have additional programs along the same lines.

That is a bit of an understatement brain_cloud.

In 2008, Medicaid provided health coverage and services to approximately 49 million low-income children, pregnant women, elderly persons, and disabled individuals. Federal Medicaid outlays were estimated to be $204 billion in 2008.[19]

Medicaid payments currently assist nearly 60 percent of all nursing home residents and about 37 percent of all childbirths in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid#Budget

49 million or 17% of the population received Medicaid outlays in 2008. That is a huge portion of the population that qualifies as poor. The great majority of them have good medical care, shelter, heat, microwaves, cable TV and are overweight from too much eating. It is amazing how we define "poor" today.

Look at the statistics on childbirths - 37% and the trend is up.

60% of nursing home residents receive Medicaid payments. Typically this means they and their families contribute nothing to health care or living costs - Medicaid pays everything - housing, food, health expensive, physical therapy.

Then don't forget Medicare which will have expenditures over $500 billion this year alone.

There is a huge part of the population feeding at the same trough as the lobbyists.

It is too late to prevent socialism in the U.S. - We already have it.

BTW, I see Mr. Miserable has spent time today posting a long polemic, including graphics, for his self-enjoyment. So just for the record, I do not support the Republican party, the Democratic party, Sarah Palin or the Tea Party. The reason I don't is because none of them support the Constitution, the principles of limited government or individual freedom.

I have sent several people who PMed, a list of links to organizations that I do support. If you would like the links, just send me a PM. Give me some time to reply because I am very busy with some travel this month.

[WearyOne]

The difference is that in Canada... the government subsidizes its' citizens health by making it available to people that need it... not just those who can afford it.
Nord

Not to get into the political food fight, but this is wrong. The U.S. has a program called Medicaid, which provides insurance to the poor, and most states have additional programs along the same lines.

My friend and I are two examples of folks that make too much money to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to pay for individual insurance at our ages and with our health conditions. (We're both self-employed.) That being said, I do not agree with the current U.S. government health plan that's out there now and neither does she. I'm not debating it (as I've done that before); just stating it.

[GumbyCT]

Okay...I'll clarify it more appropriately.

Our provincial insurance provided by our taxes can not deny medical attention period. Regardless of income, preexisting conditions, clauses in section x, sub section y, paragraph z of a policy.

Have a great one all...I'm out

We should just get on the bus and go north?

hmmm - exactly what is being debated here?