Hole In Roof

[Nord]

That is a strange family. It needs one side with guns, prisons and IRS thugs to forcibly take money from part of the family and transfer it to another part of the family.

My own family has some dysfunction from time to time, but certainly nothing like that.

On another point, you seem to infer that lack of resources cause crime. I have lived and worked in a few different neighborhoods and observed this differently. I have seen prosperous neighborhoods turn to crime and then poverty followed. I have also read some good studies showing crime causes poverty and not the other way around.

We are all part of one big family of God. God, in the instructions He gave us, the Holy Bible, asks us to help the less fortunate. But nowhere in His Book, does he tell us to form governments to force others to help the less fortunate. He wants us to do it ourselves.

So Well...

1. Just how much "taxes" would you pay, if paying taxes was voluntary... Just how much would you pay
2. I would prefer that "no side" needed guns... but if they're necessary then please only one side - the same side that operates prisons and governments... but I guess it depends on the level of dysfunction.
3. There are studies and statistics to help prove whatever you want. If you are asking... I think that crime exists in all neighbourhoods. I also think that people that don't have the necessities of life... shelter, food, protection etc.... will result in people becoming frustrated with a system and eventually take matters into their own hands ( French Revolution - "Let them eat cake" rings a bell ). Poverty is a condition that can be made better if other people care enough. But when there are extreme contrasts of wealth and poverty... it seems to be an indication that something may be amiss in the system.
4. I am always wary of Bibical quotes - it is usually out of context and almost always used to prove a biased point of view.
5. I think the quote should be... I think He does tell us to help the less fortunate if they can't "do it themselves."
6. I find it odd that there was hardly an uproar and marching in the streets over the "bailout" of Wall Street and million dollar bonuses that are still being made today and yet "healthcare" has divided the United States down the middle... not necessarily "right from left" but "have from have-nots". It may be the not-so-new acceptable social structure.

Roster... you must enjoy the political debate...

Nord

[So Well]

So Well...

1. Just how much "taxes" would you pay, if paying taxes was voluntary... Just how much would you pay

That is a hypothetical of a dreamy world that I don’t care to waste time contemplating.

So Well...

2. guns... but if they're necessary then please only one side - the same side that operates prisons and governments... but I guess it depends on the level of dysfunction.

We are in agreement if you mean the government needs guns to protect the rights of individual citizens. That is why we organized the government and gave it limited powers. However we have become soft and allowed it to take far expanded powers over many aspects of our life.

I disagree that only the government should have arms. The populace has a right to guns for self-defense against fellow citizens and especially against a government that turns tyrannical.

So Well...

3. I also think that people that don't have the necessities of life... shelter, food, protection etc.... will result in people becoming frustrated with a system and eventually take matters into their own hands ( French Revolution - "Let them eat cake" rings a bell ). Poverty is a condition that can be made better if other people care enough.

I know from my own upbringing, that many who have little from birth, if allowed the individual freedom to do so and given the expectations to do so from their parents, community and government, will pull themselves up, work hard, act socially responsible, learn and become productive, prospering members of society.

I also see from examples in my own community, if you give citizens the necessities of life, a large portion of them will become complacent, will stop striving, working and innovating and will become a drag on the rest of society.

So Well...

4. I am always wary of Bibical quotes - it is usually out of context and almost always used to prove a biased point of view.

I have similar feelings and that is why I did not make a Biblical quote in my post.

However, I am tired of hearing from the religious left that socialist government programs are how the New Testatment wants us to go about doing God’s work.

But I am not so tired that I don’t always challenge them to show me the sections where this is stated. Where are those books, chapters and verses?

So Well...

6. I find it odd that there was hardly an uproar and marching in the streets over the "bailout" of Wall Street

That may be because you only use the popular media who are overwhelmingly on the left and did only rarely report the objections to these bailouts. It could also be because you want to believe that so you can use it as argument for social programs you favor.

There are plenty of us in blogs, articles, columns, letters to the editors and “around water coolers” who railed against, and continue to rail against, these corporate welfare programs. “Fear of failure” is part of market discipline and without it, we get dysfunctional markets. The government should not take this discipline away.

I know what Rooster is up to and here I let him drag me into a thread on a forum which has a heavily socialist membership.

OK, that is not fair to Rooster. I am my own agent and he has not threatened me with guns or prisons.

[LinkC]

those who "know" that's the answer have a life-time warranty on their roof.

Yep, anyone who "knows" that's the answer has a closed, locked and throw away the key iron-clad roof. No doubt. (But I will agree that "think"ing has no role in "know"ing in this instance. I apologize for insinuating that thought played any part.)

However, those unable to think at all have no roof cuz it has collapsed under the weight of the koolaide (err, I mean tea) ... they need a complete mental rebuild of their party house.

And he's off into Dream land again...let us know if you wake up. We'll wait...

[Nord]

That is a hypothetical of a dreamy.... (con't)

....That may be because you only use the popular media who are overwhelmingly on the left and did only rarely report the objections to these bailouts. It could also be because you want to believe that so you can use it as argument for social programs you favor.

There are plenty of us in blogs, articles, columns, letters to the editors and “around water coolers” who railed against, and continue to rail against, these corporate welfare programs. “Fear of failure” is part of market discipline and without it, we get dysfunctional markets. The government should not take this discipline away.

I'm not so sure that the "markets" were not dysfunctional prior to the bailout... in fact I think I think many people who consider themselves part of the market, equate functional with greed.

There are many things to be said but what I find interesting is the lack of "middle ground" or tolerance for differing viewpoints amongst rights and lefts on almost any issue. How can anyone be wrong if everyone is right ?? There doesn't seem to be any tolerance for differing...

Hopefully the "plenty of you in blogs, articles, columns, letters and water coolers" will take the time to try to understand each other and the "market forces" (market includes people and social issues, not just profits and ownership) at work... " it's not me or them... it's us. "

Nord

[KarmicLynx]

I'm not so sure that the "markets" were not dysfunctional prior to the bailout... in fact I think I think many people who consider themselves part of the market, equate functional with greed.

What makes the market functional is greed. Me being greedy will demand that I get paid what I'm worth, a company will want a job done for the lowest cost. If they hire me, I make money. If they don't hire me but go somewhere cheaper then they get inferior product or I am trying to charge to much for my services. Greed, it may not be perfect, but it exists.

What makes it dysfunctional is when people deceive themselves and take greed out of the equation. The ones at the top are people too. Just as flawed as the rest of us. They are people. They are not immune to greed. However by convincing the masses that they are greedless, they are able to take more for themselves.

KL

Either way, it'll all work itself out in the end.

[PST]

I know what Rooster is up to and here I let him drag me into a thread on a forum which has a heavily socialist membership.

It's all in the point of view. When I can't resist joining a political or economic thread, I always marvel at how dominated the forum seems to be by conservatives and libertarians. It's the points we disagree with that catch our eye.

[WearyOne]

We are all part of one big family of God. God, in the instructions He gave us, the Holy Bible, asks us to help the less fortunate. But nowhere in His Book, does he tell us to form governments to force others to help the less fortunate. He wants us to do it ourselves.

Amen!

[getafix]

One of my friend is taking Ambien for his insomnia. I read some of his emails that he sent after he took the Ambien and before going to bed. This sounds just like it. All I would like to say is that thanks for keeping this forum in your thoughts and I mean it in the most sincere way.

[Nord]

I'm not so sure that the "markets" were not dysfunctional prior to the bailout... in fact I think I think many people who consider themselves part of the market, equate functional with greed.

What makes the market functional is greed. Me being greedy will demand that I get paid what I'm worth, a company will want a job done for the lowest cost. If they hire me, I make money. If they don't hire me but go somewhere cheaper then they get inferior product or I am trying to charge to much for my services. Greed, it may not be perfect, but it exists.

What makes it dysfunctional is when people deceive themselves and take greed out of the equation. The ones at the top are people too. Just as flawed as the rest of us. They are people. They are not immune to greed. However by convincing the masses that they are greedless, they are able to take more for themselves.

KL

Either way, it'll all work itself out in the end.

Greed does not make a market functional... In a perfect balanced free market, supply and demand are equal and owners and labour get paid their worth. When greed takes over then it is an unbalanced market and and something will give. People will want too much for labour, owners want too much profit or controls are placed on supply or demand... that is greed... good or bad depends on whether you are winning at the game.

In this "game" when greed is good... there are either winners or losers... there is no "win win scenario" Greed is usually accompanied by immoral (sometimes criminal) behaviour. Just ask Gordon Gekko, Bernie Madoff, Enron or anyone who joined in their games. Greed exists... but when it takes over... only bad things happen for most people.

Just seems odd to me that some people who support greed are also the ones vulnerable to it...

Oh well... perhaps history will judge your viewpoint more kindly than mine but I, for one, don't think so.

Nord

[Nord]

One of my friend is taking Ambien for his insomnia. I read some of his emails that he sent after he took the Ambien and before going to bed. This sounds just like it. All I would like to say is that thanks for keeping this forum in your thoughts and I mean it in the most sincere way.

Amen

[So Well]

What makes the market functional is greed. Me being greedy will demand that I get paid what I'm worth, a company will want a job done for the lowest cost.

Such confusion over semantics. Demanding that you get paid what you are worth is only self-interest and it is part of justice.

"Greed" would be demanding that you get paid more than you are worth. Overstating hours worked on your time sheet would be one example of greed (and fraud).

If that is clear, we can discuss the definition of "worth".

[-SWS]

If you've got a house, and you've got a big hole in your roof, and it's raining and it's snowing through that roof, and there are some people who are inside the rooms where the roof's okay, and they're nice and warm, and then you got a few, you know, of your -- your family members in that room where there's a big hole in the roof, and they're shivering and they're cold, if you repair the roof, that's going to cost some money. But if all the water damage from your floors and all the heat that's going out of the roof and all -- you count all those savings, over time, it may turn out that it actually is saving you money and, by the way, all those family members now are warm too. You're not the only one who's warm, right? That's essentially what we're trying to set up.

So who are you and what did you do with roster?

Please pop back in this thread with a comment along the lines of: "Gottcha! Every last one of ya! Freeloading family members aren't above patching the damn roof!" That way we'll know you are NOT being held hostage by a liberal who has taken over the roster posting accounts on this and all political message boards.

Thank you in advance!

[roster]

Please pop back in this thread with a comment along the lines of: "Gottcha! Every last one of ya! Freeloading family members aren't above patching the damn roof!" That way we'll know you are NOT being held hostage by a liberal who has taken over the roster posting accounts on this and all political message boards.

Thank you in advance!

OK my former friend.

Let me say first I really enjoyed these posts:

This is goung to require some deeeeep thinking!

Roooster Have you checked your AHI lately? It seems to be getting a little high, or is something else getting high?

Maybe he's smoking something. Maybe it's all the smoke and heat that's escaping through the hole in the roof and being captured by the CPAP hose?

Comrade Roster:

That 'might' be OK if the other "family members" were helping out with the rent, groceries, chores. Thankfully, I don't have to house strangers in my house or use a community drinking glass...YET.

BTW: Didn't they already try and fail with this experiment in Eastern Europe?

Funny how family can be interpreted as body organs and the hole as apnea or as a political comment. We have singularly interesting minds in this forum

One of my friend is taking Ambien for his insomnia. I read some of his emails that he sent after he took the Ambien and before going to bed. This sounds just like it.

And of course I enjoyed:

Please pop back in this thread with a comment along the lines of: "Gottcha! Every last one of ya! Freeloading family members aren't above patching the damn roof!"

The old Rooster was doing fine while you guys were debating. But then in the middle of the debate he was called “Comrade” and he likes the sound of it. США. Оно ain' t духовная пустыня. Скажите, it' расстегай s режим la, men' костюмы 2-кальсон s и дом храбрейшего, cpaptalk.com, Pike' пик s и остров Coney.



Oh. The OP was not my words. It was from Obama when he was in town last week with my friends at Celgard - http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... on-taxes/1

Video at http://www.cspan.org/Watch/Media/2010/0 ... +care.aspx

Over and out.

Comrade Rooooster

[-SWS]

OK my former friend.

Let me say first I really enjoyed these posts

Lighten up, good sir... I didn't exactly rain on your political rally... apparently the subterfuge, though. Relax, this political thread's guaranteed to get plenty more pages for you to read.

But with apapdude AWOL for so long.... Well, let's just say I knew that wasn't YOU composing that original post.

[roster]

A lot of subpoints here, but the main point was why wasn’t Obama prepared to answer an obvious major question: Is it wise, considering the current state of the economy, to add more taxes at this time?

Thank you, Mr. President. We're honored to have you here today. I'm Joyce Reavis from Lake Wylie, South Carolina. I work at Celgard.
We have wonderful CEOs that take care of us and have really helped the company grow. My question is though, in the economy times that we have now, is it a wise decision to add more taxes to us, with the health care? Because it -- we are overtaxed as it is.

My take on it is that Obama did not expect any but softball questions and did not prepare properly. After all he just gave corporate welfare of $49 million to Celgard. Who would expect their employees to bite the hand that just fed them?

Of course I also believe the only honest straightforward answer Obama could give is, “No, it is not prudent to add more taxes at this time.”

$49 million to Celgard, a company with $1.5 billion in assets and excellent patents that nearly guarantee financial success????? I guess they had a hole in their roof!!!

Now there is a subpoint about my neighbor, Joyce Reavis. How long will Celgard continue to employee her?

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — The White House didn't restrict reporters' access to the 300 to 400 employees who attended President Obama's appearance at Celgard LLC here on Friday. But the company did — unless you wanted to ask a worker how they "felt" about the president's speech and subsequent q-and-a.

Joyce Reavis, a Celgard worker who questioned Obama on high-earner tax hikes in his health reform package, made her way to the back of the room after the president left to do local TV, accompanied by a company flack.

In response to Reavis, Obama delivered one of the longest answers in recent presidential filibustering — a 15-minute dissertation of tax policy and coverage schemes that clocked in at 2,600 words on the transcript.

After the event, when reporters approached to ask Reavis whether she was satisfied with Obama's epic answer, she obliged, politely telling them that she appreciated his effort but still disagreed.

At that point, Celgard's communications director, Holly Hughes, intervened, saying that the company's policy was to bar employees from talking to the press.

Hughes said she would grant an exception only to workers who wanted to talk about "how they felt about the president's visit, but not about policy."

Reavis smiled uncomfortably and stopped talking.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm ... d8b89.html