BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

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JohnBFisher
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by JohnBFisher » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:54 pm

FeistyWifey wrote:... What you recommend, however, is exactly what a camper or RVer recommended using. He said what ResMed recommended (pure sine wave) did not work because the power fluctuates. Said to install a 120 inverter directly into the battery. (ResMed's answer to that when I put it to them was, "The power only fluctuated because he didn't use pure sine wave!") I thought, Well so now what? Good to hear from a Adapt SV user, John. ...
What you noted about the previous power converter is true. It converted power from 12V DC to 30V DC (or something odd like that). Apparently it was not reliable. So, they no longer sell it. I tried. But from the Battery Guide:
Note: ResMed no longer distributes converters for the AutoSet CS2 or VPAP Adapt SV.
But I am pretty certain my answer is correct. I did a lot of research before a recent international long flight. I found that:
  1. due to possible damage, American Airlines does not allow most medical equipment off power ports
  2. the power from the power ports is too low (75W) for the ASV unit
  3. to use the equipment in flight you need to talk with their disability service
  4. without the power port you need a battery that will drive the unit
  5. the power needed from a battery for the ASV unit would fairly large
  6. the compact batteries for such a setup is much more expensive than I wanted to spend on it !
The ResMed ASV User Guide says the power needs are:
AC Input range: 110–120V and 220–240V; 50–60Hz; 60VA
60VA is the same as 60 Watts. I assume they require the 150W sustained supply to handle extra load and to simplify their suggestions. They recommend an inverter that will handle almost all their units. But it is still reasonably priced. (At least in comparison to the Pure Sine Wave Inverter).

The ResMed Battery Guide (see the link below) on page 13 notes the EEP pressure and average pressure. For example, my EEP is set to 8. But my average pressure runs about 10. That probably means average pressure support is about 4. So the third line in that table in the middle of page 13 shows without a humidifier a 26 amp hour deep cycle battery will last 8 hours. Since we sometimes loose power for a couple days in a row, I would want 16 hours. So a 52 amp hour battery will be what I hunt for.

By the way, although the 120W inverter might work, I suggest going with at least a 150W inverter. That way if you have problems you can tell ResMed you followed their documentation. They would then need to replace / repair the unit.

Oh, and just because a front line call center person says something does not mean they know jack about it. (Sorry to be rude, but their own document says otherwise and ResMed's engineers had to sign off on it).

As to whether this will work... well, I'm about to find out. I need to purchase a new deep cycle battery tomorrow (due to possible storm and power loss). I already have a 150W inverter. I used it with my CPAP and BiPAP units in the past. It should work. But I probably should get a fairly powerful deep cycle battery. (My unit pushes my inspiration pressure upto 23cm H2O, which will take more amp hours from the battery than if it stayed in a nice 10cm H2O range).

By the way, see the bottom of page 2 of the ResMed battery guide to see how it should be hooked up:

http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... lo_eng.pdf

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timbalionguy
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by timbalionguy » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:31 am

It is interesting that they give the power requirement in volt-amps. This implies that the 'power factor' on this device is significantly less than 1. Power factor is hard to explain, but basically, AC power system like to see a load where the input current changes in lock-step with input voltage. When this condition is met, typically for loads like incandescent light bulbs and resistance heaters, the power factor is said to be '1'. That means that VA = W. Inverters like loads like this.

Now, if the peak current does not flow at the same time as the peak voltage, it causes problems with the power source, if severe enough. The peak current can lead the voltage (capacitive) or lag the peak voltage (inductive). In either case, the difference between the ideal case and the case under consideration results in the power factor being less than 1. Almost all electronic and motor loads (xPAP machines being an electronic load despite having a motor) have a power factor somewhat less than 1. When the power factor is less than 1, VA > actual watts by the multiplier of the power factor. What is interesting about this early or late current compared to the voltage (which is called 'reactive power') is that the power used is later returned to the power source, later in the AC cycle. So, when the power factor is less than 1, less power is actually consumed by the load than is flowing into the unit. However, the power source still has to generate this 'reactive power', even if the load returns it later. And the increased current flow due to low power factor results in greater losses in the wiring. This wreaks havoc with small inverters. This is probably part of the reason ResMed recommends a 'pure sine wave inverter'. It also explains why they recommend a significantly bigger inverter than what the load 'seems' to require. (Heated humidifiers are another matter altogether, because of the way they control power!)

I just looked on the website of a power supply manufacturer I frequently reference, Astrodyne. For some odd reason, they don't list the higher power DC-DC converters or models that might be configurable with a 30 volt output. I do know they are available, and are much higher quality (most likely) than the original ResMed part. In the end, if you can find a suitable DC-DC converter for battery operation, you will do much better (in part for reasons discussed above) than using an inverter (and this assumes you don't need humidifier heat). Power factor is not an issue in DC. Actual power used always = volts x amps.
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by BleepingBeauty » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:44 am

I used the battery with the inverter last night, just powering the ASV. (HC150 was plugged into the wall, so it shouldn't have been drawing any power from the battery.) I woke to use the bathroom after almost six hours. When I turned the machine back on, it sounded a steady alarm. No error message was displayed on the LCD, and the machine's alarm light was not lit.

The battery has four green lights to indicate how much power is available. It was fully charged (all four lights lit) when I went to bed; it's down to two lights now, after just six hours of use. This sure doesn't bode well...

Any ideas?
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

PR S1 ASV 950, DreamWear mask, F&P 150 humidifier, O2 @ 2L.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by Patrick A » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:26 am

BleepingBeauty wrote:I used the battery with the inverter last night, just powering the ASV. (HC150 was plugged into the wall, so it shouldn't have been drawing any power from the battery.) I woke to use the bathroom after almost six hours. When I turned the machine back on, it sounded a steady alarm. No error message was displayed on the LCD, and the machine's alarm light was not lit.

The battery has four green lights to indicate how much power is available. It was fully charged (all four lights lit) when I went to bed; it's down to two lights now, after just six hours of use. This sure doesn't bode well...
Any ideas?
I have been following this but never posted until now.......
I recently (finally!) acquired a BiPAP Auto SV through CraigsList. My question relates to using a backup battery with this unit.
You said in your first post you got the machine off of Craig'sList...this is just my opinion I think they sold you a machine that is defective. Did they offer any kind of warranty? Other wise send it in for repair.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by Muse-Inc » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:04 pm

-SWS wrote:...My last post until February...
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by Kiralynx » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:47 pm

BleepingBeauty wrote:I used the battery with the inverter last night, just powering the ASV. <snip>

The battery has four green lights to indicate how much power is available. It was fully charged (all four lights lit) when I went to bed; it's down to two lights now, after just six hours of use. This sure doesn't bode well...
No thoughts or ideas. Sure does seem like the ASV may draw a whale of a lot of power. And it doesn't bode well for using it with any kind of humidifier, except passover.

(Waiting for continuing results with baited* breath...)



*anchovies. I'm making Caesar salad dressing today...

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OutaSync
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by OutaSync » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:51 pm

BB,

I'm also waiting to see how yours works out before ordering a set up for me. A storm is coming in tonight and they are predicting 6-16 inches of snow. Snow and ice are about the only things that make my power go out and I'm scared to death to go without any back up heat or CPAP with 4 grandchildren in the house.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1

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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by FeistyWifey » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:36 pm

John, just had a chance to get back online and found this wonderful info. Thank you thank you thank you! I wish I could get one and get it set up before this winter storm hits tonight. Hope you get yours and are well fixed as your pressure needs are a good deal greater than Silver's, and he feels totally lousy if the power goes out. Thanks again.

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JohnBFisher
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by JohnBFisher » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:25 pm

BleepingBeauty wrote:I used the battery with the inverter last night, just powering the ASV. (HC150 was plugged into the wall, so it shouldn't have been drawing any power from the battery.) I woke to use the bathroom after almost six hours. When I turned the machine back on, it sounded a steady alarm. No error message was displayed on the LCD, and the machine's alarm light was not lit.

The battery has four green lights to indicate how much power is available. It was fully charged (all four lights lit) when I went to bed; it's down to two lights now, after just six hours of use. This sure doesn't bode well...

Any ideas?
First, if I read this correctly, you have an Inverter for your BiPAP AutoSV unit. You may actually get a little more mileage from your battery if you use the DC Power Adapter:
DC POWER ADAPTER ... 1012975
And that's from the Respironics Site:

http://bipapautosv.respironics.com/parts.aspx

And off CPAP.com, you can find it at:

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/DC-Pow ... Bipap.html

Of course, at that price, I don't know that the extra hour or so would be worth the cost.

Next, I think you got as much as you can expect with this unit out of that battery. Considering the size and portability, I'm quite impressed with it. Here's why I say that:
  • your battery has a watt hour rating of 266
  • your battery provides 12V DC
  • the amp hours is 266 / 12 = 22.17 (watt hours / volts = amp hours)
  • the BiPAP AutoSV pull 1.25 amps (maximum demand)
  • 1.25 amps x 110 - 120V AC = 137 to 150 watts (depends on the inverter)
  • Add about a 10% cost of the inverter (make it about 165 watts)
  • your machine at full bore would consume 165 watt hours in one hour
  • Over two hours it could consume more than the 266 watt hours
So, your machine dropped the battery power to about half. At that point it no longer output a high enough voltage to drive the inverter and/or the BiPAP AutoSV unit.

Still 6 hours and then the battery was at 1/2 capacity means that:
  • it consumed about 1/2 of the watt hours available (133)
  • spread over 6 hours it consumed 22.17 watt hours per hour
I might not have that quite right... I've not dealt with the battery side of things for quite some time.

That's not too shabby. Compare that to a deep cycle battery (that weighs a LOT, and costs from $100 to $200, and takes a LOT of room, and must be trickle charged to keep it working, and...). Your battery is a LOT smaller and MUCH more portable to use. You got a good value on your battery. More often than not power is usually restored within a day. And you can often go somewhere to charge the unit, even if your home still does not have power.

Hope that helps you feel better. It did well. Much, much better than I figured it would do. Between the price and my immediate need (and that I had not seen the lower price you found), I went with a deep cycle battery. Trust me, if I felt I could afford it I would prefer your approach.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by timbalionguy » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:08 pm

Without going into detail, John is right. You will get a lot more mileage out of a battery with a dc-dc converter than you will with an inverter. You eliminate losses in the inverter, losses due to power factor (Don't feel bad if my power factor post was hard to understand. A lot of electronic folks nowadays do not understand power factor very well), and losses in the CPAP's power supply converting line voltage AC back to DC.

I am going to do some research tonight on DC-DC converters to deal with folks who have the 24 volt (like your BiPAP auto SV and others) and 30 volt (VPAP adapt SV) machines.

And I do not think there is a problem with your BiPAP SV. You just had marginal supply voltage. The charge gauges on those battery packs are not to be trusted. BTW, anyone who routinely deals with battery power owes it to themselves to go to Radio Shack, an electronics parts store, etc. and get themselves a digital voltmeter. You can expect to pay $30 or more for a reasonably decent meter. Sometimes, places like automotive stores, and Harbour Freight Tools have really cheap DVM's that work for the purpose. If you do buy one of these though, check it against a known good meter.
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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by BleepingBeauty » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:16 pm

Kiralynx wrote:No thoughts or ideas. Sure does seem like the ASV may draw a whale of a lot of power. And it doesn't bode well for using it with any kind of humidifier, except passover.
Well, I've recharged the battery and will try again tonight (with the same setup). I'm hoping that maybe I can get more time out of the battery if I can sleep through the night. (I have this nagging thought that, if I hadn't shut the machine off and started it up again, the battery would've continued to power the machine for awhile longer. But that's just a hunch.)
OutaSync wrote:BB,

I'm also waiting to see how yours works out before ordering a set up for me. A storm is coming in tonight and they are predicting 6-16 inches of snow. Snow and ice are about the only things that make my power go out and I'm scared to death to go without any back up heat or CPAP with 4 grandchildren in the house.

Bev
Hi, Bev. Since you and Kira are both vulnerable to longer-term power outages, I would go for a battery with more capacity than the one I have. (I couldn't have asked for more performance when it was giving me 27 hours running the APAP @ 12cm, but it's obviously not powerful enough to keep the ASV running for more than one night.)
JohnBFisher wrote: First, if I read this correctly, you have an Inverter for your BiPAP AutoSV unit. You may actually get a little more mileage from your battery if you use the DC Power Adapter:
DC POWER ADAPTER ... 1012975
And that's from the Respironics Site:

http://bipapautosv.respironics.com/parts.aspx

And off CPAP.com, you can find it at:

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/DC-Pow ... Bipap.html

Of course, at that price, I don't know that the extra hour or so would be worth the cost.
Hi, John, and thanks. Yes, I investigated the adapter first, but the price of the inverter was far more appealing. And if, as you say, adding the adapter would only extend the battery life by an hour or so, I'll keep the money.
Next, I think you got as much as you can expect with this unit out of that battery. Considering the size and portability, I'm quite impressed with it.

<snip>

That's not too shabby. Compare that to a deep cycle battery (that weighs a LOT, and costs from $100 to $200, and takes a LOT of room, and must be trickle charged to keep it working, and...). Your battery is a LOT smaller and MUCH more portable to use. You got a good value on your battery. More often than not power is usually restored within a day. And you can often go somewhere to charge the unit, even if your home still does not have power.

Hope that helps you feel better. It did well. Much, much better than I figured it would do. Between the price and my immediate need (and that I had not seen the lower price you found), I went with a deep cycle battery. Trust me, if I felt I could afford it I would prefer your approach.
I'm not that disappointed. As I said above, the usage I got from the battery with the APAP was outstanding, so I was hoping for two nights with the ASV, but I'll take what I can get. It'll do in a pinch, and that's why I have it in the first place.
timbalionguy wrote:Without going into detail, John is right. You will get a lot more mileage out of a battery with a dc-dc converter than you will with an inverter. You eliminate losses in the inverter, losses due to power factor (Don't feel bad if my power factor post was hard to understand. A lot of electronic folks nowadays do not understand power factor very well), and losses in the CPAP's power supply converting line voltage AC back to DC.
Thanks, tlg. I guess the price difference was what got me ($50 for the inverter, $165 for the adapter).
I am going to do some research tonight on DC-DC converters to deal with folks who have the 24 volt (like your BiPAP auto SV and others) and 30 volt (VPAP adapt SV) machines.
You couldn't have done that a week or two ago, before I bought the inverter?
And I do not think there is a problem with your BiPAP SV.
I don't think so, either. It only had 100 hours on it, and it sure seems to be operating properly so far.

But if I wanted to check the serial number, how would I do that? I understand the manufacturers won't speak with us lowly peons.
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

PR S1 ASV 950, DreamWear mask, F&P 150 humidifier, O2 @ 2L.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

Post by BleepingBeauty » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:13 am

Well, my second night using battery/inverter power produced the same results as the first. This time, I didn't wake up for the bathroom and shut off the machine; the alarm sounded and woke me after nearly six hours. I then switched over to AC power for the rest of the night.

So my hunch was wrong, and my battery/inverter setup will apparently only power the ASV for just under six hours. And I'm pretty sure it's the inverter alarm that's sounding (because the battery power level is too low) because the ASV isn't displaying any kind of error code, and none of the alarm lights are lit.

FYI to tlg re: testing the voltage, my inverter's instruction manual says:

"Measuring the AC Voltage
The output waveform of the AC inverter is a MODIFIED SINEWAVE. If you choose to measure the AC output voltage, you must use a TURN RMS VOLT METER. Using any other type of voltage measuring device will result in an AC voltage reading of 20 to 30 volt lower than the rated value. When using a true RMS volt meter, you will get an accurate reading."

I'll be interested to hear what your research reveals re: backup power needs for these high-end machines.
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

PR S1 ASV 950, DreamWear mask, F&P 150 humidifier, O2 @ 2L.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - And how's your therapy on it?

Post by ozij » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:29 am

Somewhat OT -- but how's your therapy on the machine?

O.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - And how's your therapy on it?

Post by BleepingBeauty » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:34 pm

ozij wrote:Somewhat OT -- but how's your therapy on the machine?

O.
Hi, O.

As far as I can tell, it's going well so far. The pressure changes (sometimes zooming up quickly from 12 to near-20) don't seem to bother me at all; I'm unaware of them happening. Also, FWIW, this machine is much quieter than my Respironics APAP - and no blue lights!

I've been using the ASV at 12/12/22 for nearly two weeks, and the data looks pretty good. AHI has been 2 for 9 of my 13 nights so far (and no nights over 5 - a big improvement over my previous fixed-pressure data), leak has been within normal range, IPAPpeak has been 14 or 15 each night, and I feel like I'm sleeping well. But I do find myself yawning in the early evening, so some tweaking is likely called for. These first two weeks have been an exercise in baseline data collection (one week with my supplemental O2, one week without), and I'll be posting some data soon for feedback.

P.S.
I have a question (to anyone with the BiPAP Auto SV) about how the data is reported on this machine. My AI, HI, AHI and PB are reported in round numbers only (1.0, 2.0), never a fraction. Is that the norm? TIA
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

PR S1 ASV 950, DreamWear mask, F&P 150 humidifier, O2 @ 2L.

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Re: BiPAP ASV - And how's your therapy on it?

Post by OutaSync » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:00 pm

[quote="BleepingBeauty
P.S.
I have a question (to anyone with the BiPAP Auto SV) about how the data is reported on this machine. My AI, HI, AHI and PB are reported in round numbers only (1.0, 2.0), never a fraction. Is that the norm? TIA[/quote]

Yes, that is how these machines report events. An AHI of 1 may mean that I only had one event all night.

Bev
Diagnosed 9/4/07
Sleep Study Titrated to 19 cm H2O
Rotating between Activa and Softgel
11/2/07 RemStar M Series Auto with AFlex 14-17
10/17/08 BiPAP Auto SV 13/13-23, BPM Auto, AHI avg <1