Bman: Spirit Overnight Indices

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Bman: Spirit Overnight Indices

Post by Guest » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:09 pm

bman wrote: my ahi 5-10, ai 2-3

reading other postings, ?others have better results

my 95th is about 12, I wondered this is actually my fixed pressure settings.
I actually tried different settings:

5-15, results as above
5-10, more sleep apnoea
5-12, feeling less easy to start cos of low pressure
5, shocking apnoea, went over the limit
7.2 -12.6, more pressure to start with and then just high enough to stop apnoea
Bman, there is a chance that the Spirit's algorithm may not be best suited for you. However, that statement is true of any AutoPAP model with respect to any patient who is not receiving satisfactory results. My understanding is that the Spirit, in particular, is highly intolerant of these three physical faults: 1) condensation build-up, or any blockage, of the sensor line, 2) humidifier over-fill, and 3) excessive air leaks anywhere in the circuit, mask seal, or even an open mouth. Users have repeatedly posted that any of those three physical conditions can skew their sleep-event detection and/or consequent delivered pressure (which tends to elevate). So consider avoiding those three fault conditions to be absolute prerequisites to success with the Spirit.

With a pressure range of 5 to 15, you typically achieve an AHI of 5-10 and an AI of only 2 to 3. That implies an AHI that is primarily comprised of hypopneas. Bear in mind that the Spirit will trigger on sleep events and compounded sleep events with a pressure response that is commensurate with the detected sleep-event severity (as defined by the A10 algorithm). However, you should also know that the Spirit will not trigger on any hypopneas unless those hypopneas are concomitant with either snore or flow limitation. In my guesstimation, this is the Spirit's statistically-based risk-avoidance strategy with respect to hypopneas that may or may not be central in nature. Hypopneas that are concimitant with lesser obstructive events by contrast have much less inherent statistical risk of being central in nature. The Spirit's A10 algorithm thus can and will trigger on those concomitant hypopneas with a statistical probability of safety in mind (regarding avoidance of pressure induced "runaway" central events). Also bear in mind that the Spirit is in no way neglegent with non-concomitant hypopneas as the A10 algorithm will try to leverage as much of its obstructive treatment toward proactive pressure as possible (versus exclusive delivery of reactive pressures)

While the Spirit's A10 algorithm seems to fit the apneic patient population rather well, some unfortunate hypopnea patients will have fair numbers of obstructive hypopneas that are not concomitant with either snore or flow limitation. These patients may end up with unusually high numbers of hypopneas on their overnight sleep charts (since the Spirit elects to not trigger on these non-concomitant hypopneas on a statistically-sound basis). Some of these patients will have to try another AutoPAP's algorithm or convert to using fixed pressure. However, many or perhaps even most of these non-concomitant hypopneic patients can try lowering their AutoSet's bottom pressure to proactively address many of these non-concomitant hypopneas. If those hypopneas were central in nature, you might expect your HI numbers to stay the same or even increase. If those hypopneas were purely obstructive, on the other hand, you would hope to see those elevated HI numbers decrease a bit---it really depends on how much pressure those particular hypopneas require, and whether your AutoSet bottom pressure happens to meet ot exceed that value.

-SWS
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To Bman from SWS

Post by -SWS » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:15 pm

The above post was from SWS, Bman. Don't know why that post didn't take my brand new log in as the other posts tonight have, but I can't edit the following correction:

Error:
"However, many or perhaps even most of these non-concomitant hypopneic patients can try lowering their AutoSet's bottom pressure to proactively address many of these non-concomitant hypopneas."

Here's what I meant to type:
"However, many or perhaps even most of these non-concomitant hypopneic patients can try raising their AutoSet's bottom pressure to proactively address many of these non-concomitant hypopneas."
Last edited by -SWS on Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wading thru the muck! » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:17 pm

Guest (SWS?) wrote:However, many or perhaps even most of these non-concomitant hypopneic patients can try lowering their AutoSet's bottom pressure to proactively address many of these non-concomitant hypopneas
I'm curious, how does lowering the bottom pressure reduce these non-concomitant hypopneas?
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!

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Post by -SWS » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:22 pm

wading thru the muck! wrote:
Guest (SWS?) wrote:However, many or perhaps even most of these non-concomitant hypopneic patients can try lowering their AutoSet's bottom pressure to proactively address many of these non-concomitant hypopneas
I'm curious, how does lowering the bottom pressure reduce these non-concomitant hypopneas?
It does not, Wader. Thanks for pointing out that error! Central events may or may not be avoided by lowering pressures, but unaddressed obstructive events are addressed with increased pressures.

chrisp
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Post by chrisp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:31 pm

Looks like we have another unhappy Spirit owner..Join the club..I have AHI & HI in the 10-20 range. Id gladly take 7s.

Good news is you can now purchase the 420E w/heated humidifier for 750.

get your order in now.




-SWS
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New 420e

Post by -SWS » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:58 pm

Boy, you guys with the devil faces are relentless! LOL!

Chris, too bad you didn't have lots of Reslink data to look at. I'd be willing to bet you had plenty of non-concomitant hypopneas that A10 elected to not trigger on. The 420e, by contrast, would trigger on those---which is likely why you seemed to fare better on it.

The life-enhancing lesson you have imparted to many of us: if we have a PAP machine that can display our overnight data---it's a darn good idea to display that data regularly; if we don't have a machine that can display our sleep indices, think of getting one next time around. Some people say the bottom line is how we feel. But many people actually become acclimated to how poorly they feel. Overnight sleep indices sure can help us determine if our sleep therapy fails or succeeds.

chrisp
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Post by chrisp » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:46 pm

SWS, The Spirit stores a year of data. I can look at the AHI, HI , Pressure for dey, week, month, 6month, year. Average 12 for all. If i was going to keep the thing I'd buy the software. When I bought the Spirit in 2002 the only software was the several hundred $ version.

Hopefully My new 420E with humidifier will arrive soon.


Chris

-SWS
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Spirit pressure range

Post by -SWS » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:21 am

my 95th is about 12, I wondered this is actually my fixed pressure settings.
Bman, just a quick note to let you know that a 95th percentile pressure can be misleading if an AutoSet's pressure range is not set high enough to address all obstructive events. Ideally, you would have a doctor and/or respiratory therapist to work with toward finding the correct pressure.

I noticed that as you experiementally set your Spirit's high-end pressure higher and higher, you had fewer apneas. And conversely as you set your Spirit top end lower and lower, you seemed to experience more and more unaddressed obstructive events. So based on your data I would be inlined to say that a top end of 15 cm is a good re-starting point for pressure experiments that hopefully your medical staff can help you with.

I would personally prefer to narrow that pressure spread down---at least initially. So if it were me experimenting with my doctor in the loop, I'd run a pressure range experiment with a low pressure of 10 and a high pressure of 15. I'd look at the AI and HI after a night or two at that pressure range. I'd also subjectively factor in how comfortably I slept and feel by day, then I'd make pressure range adjustments from there.
Last edited by -SWS on Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Guest

Spirit pressure range

Post by Guest » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:35 am

I'm having some confusion (happens alot, I sadly admit) and hope one of you can help me to understand what the numbers mean...

I trialed a Spirit for 5 nights, pressure range of 5-15, and got the following data from the screen on the Spirit:

Thu: Pressure=10.0, Leak=0.24, AHI=6.4, AI=1.6, HI=4.8
Fri: Pressure=10.2, Leak=.14, AHI=8.8, AI=1.8, HI=7.0
Sat: Pressure=10.6, Leak=.36, AHI=7.9, AI=1.4, HI=6.5
Sun: Pressure=10.4, Leak=.14, AHI=7.1, AI=2.0, HI=5.1
Mon: Pressure=10.2, Leak=.20, AHI=7.9, AI=3.0, HI=4.9

(I tried to type this info as a chart, but the alignment was squirrely when I checked it in the preview screen)

On the Thur. & Fri. I used a full-face mask that I could not stand to use another night. On Sat. Sun. and Mon. I used a nasal pillow system (Respironics Comfort-Lite) and slept well.

I know that if you add the AI and the HI, you get the AHI. Do these numbers indicate apnea and hypopnea events that the Spirit identified and resolved through pressure increase, or identified and could not resolve? ALSO, do these numbers indicate the average of events per hour, OR total events over the course of the entire night. My sleep study, done back in early October 2004 showed that I was having an average of 39 events per hour.

I'm not getting alot of help from the equipment provider from whom I rented the Spirit and am hopeful that you learned folks can enlighten me.
Thanks much!
Paul

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Confusion

Post by WillSucceed » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:38 am

I am having confusion! That last post was from me; I forgot to login.
Sorry!
Paul

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Sleep Indices

Post by -SWS » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:07 am

Paul, you are correct. That data indicates post-treatment AHI. It's unfortunate that your equipment provider could not help you set up correctly. Was that data taken off the Spirit's display panel, or do you have Reslink overnight charts to see how those post-treament sleep events lined up with moments of high leak?

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Spirit pressure range

Post by WillSucceed » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:52 am

SWS:
Thanks for responding!

The data in my post is taken from the display screen on the Spirit itself. I do have the computer printout that the tech gave me when I returned the machine. Unfortunately, I don't have it here with me at work so I cannot refer to it. The data I gave in my posting was from handwritten notes that I took each morning from the Spirit screen.

I am, however, still unclear. You noted in your post that "the data indicates post-treatment AHI" Does this means that on Thursday (for example) I had an average of 1.6 apneas and 4.8 hypopneas per hour that were untreated? Meaning that I am still having awakenings during the hour. Should I assume from this that there were other AHI events that occurred and were successfully resolved, but that 1.6 AI's and 4.8 HI's did not respond to treatment?

Enquiring minds want to know! I've given up reading the Enquirer.

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Post-treatment AHI

Post by -SWS » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:58 am

Paul, those post-treatment indices indicate events that might be any of the following cases: 1) correctly event-identified and intentionally unaddressed (apnea responses requiring greater than 10 cm, for instance), 2) correctly event-identified and unintentionally under-addressed, pressure-wise 3) correctly event-identified, addressed with adequate pressure means according to the Spirit's own criteria, but none the less un- or under-responsive for a variety of reasons, 4) incorrectly event-identified and likely mis-addressed (and understandably un- or under-responsive, as in the case of certain pulmonary conditions that entail pressure-unresponsive swelling, etc.).

With that said, you would strive for post-treatment AHI indices of 5 or less.

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Spirit pressure range

Post by WillSucceed » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:08 pm

Ah, I see...

So, I guess that I need to return the PB 420E that I am currently trialing and see what it says when the data is analysed. I have felt as good during the day after sleeping with the 420E as I did with the Spirit. The RemStar Auto that I tried left me feeling tired during the day.

I understand (from Rested Gal) that the 420E allows for some tweaking of the machine for those people who are shallow breathers. I think this is the "flow limitation" stuff. How does one know if one is a 'shallow breather?'

Can you offer any comparisons/suggestions regarding the 420E vs. Spirit in terms of adjustablility?

Thanks

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Post by SleepyGuy » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:20 pm

Just my 2 cents here. I have a Spirit autoPAP with a Mirage Vista mask. It's set for a range of 4-9.

I rarely have an AHI of more than 4 and the AI is rarely higher than zero. But when I get up in the morning I find that the machine is almost always at the maximum. Often it rises to this level after less than an hour. I don't understand why when the number of events is so low.

The machine will register hypopneas when I'm awake and have been breathing normally! I don't understand this either.

So far, I have been unable to sleep more than four hours with the machine since my nose has a tendency to close off when doing so. I'm going to try a nose pillow mask for this and check with my doctor for other options such as surgery.

But I have no complaints about the Spirit AutoPAP itself. It is masks and other things that I am checking into.