What happens if you never go into REM?

cat-a-tonic · Post by **cat-a-tonic** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:00 pm

Just got my results of the two sleep studies - no REM either night. The doctor stated that he was unsure whether CPAP would even help me because of this problem, but he prescribed it anyway. Since I apparently spend most of my time in Stage 2 sleep, will never going into REM hurt me? I will post more from my test results tomorrow, tonight I feel a little wounded.

Thanks.

ozij · Post by **ozij** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:09 pm

cat-a-tonic wrote:Just got my results of the two sleep studies - no REM either night. The doctor stated that he was unsure whether CPAP would even help me because of this problem, but he prescribed it anyway. Since I apparently spend most of my time in Stage 2 sleep, will never going into REM hurt me? I will post more from my test results tomorrow, tonight I feel a little wounded.

Thanks.

Carla,
According to you, your sleep study inidcated you had significant oxygen desaturation. You were diagnosed with sleep apnea, so xPAP therapy should definitely help you get more oxygen. This oxygen is very very important to your health.

You are also, hopefully, no longer creating negative pressure in your chest cavitiy while attempting to breathe in against obstructions - which is good for your GERD and for you heart.

As for not going into REM during the titration study:

During my titration study I couldn't sleep properly - stuck more or less in stages 1 - 2 simply because the whole mask machine thing was so new and bothersome. I actually had less REM than I did during the first night.

You might be dreaming quite a bit now that you're at home, in your own bed. You told us you were feeling better - I wouldn't worry too much about what the Dr. said about the REM.

Doctors are in a catch. Their best way of diagnosing sleep is in a lab during a sleep study. They sort of have to rely on those results, despite research that shows nightly results may be inconsistent. Can you imagine how wounding it is for some doctors to admit the unreliability of those studies?

CPAP users on the other hand have every night to study their sleep - though in a limited way. Go by what you feel, enjoy the benfits of you therapy, and relax.

If you don't feel better after a while you might want to check posts by Janelle, who suffered from lack of deep sleep, had a third sleep study, and was given a "deep sleep promoting" medication.

Janelle on Xyrem

O.

Jan in Colo. · Post by **Jan in Colo.** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:29 am

Carla..

no words of wisdom but if it makes you feel any better, I never went into Rem sleep either during my sleep study.

I'm just assuming that at some point it will happen if I'm a good girl and stay faithful to my CPAP....

Jan in Colo.

deltadave · Post by **deltadave** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:39 am

Hi Cat-a-tonic!
Most of the antidepressants (and doxepin in particular) are notorious REM supressants.

The doctor stated that he was unsure whether CPAP would even help me because of this problem

so we're talking apples and porcupines here.

OSA can also reduce your REM if untreated, but it can (should) "rebound" once you start CPAP therapy.

My vote would be it's the antidepressants.

deltadave

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Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:47 am

Carla,

I was just at my doctor last night. Amongst other reasons, I mentioned what I posted about my mind, so I think, is trained now to wake me up at 1:30, 3:30 and 5:30 every night since those must have been the times I repositioned every night when I wore leaky masks, and had a hose in a down position across my body at night, and would wake up to see if the mask was leaking or the hose needed repositioning. And now that my mask doesn't leak and my hose is over my head, I'm still subconsciouly, obviously, waking up at those times EVERY NIGHT. Makes me a bit more tired, I believe, than I should be given my other factors which are wonderful (I'm happy to say).

I asked about perhaps a sleep aid for a week or two to break the cycle. She recommended melatonin as it could be a lack of it due to getting a bit older where the body can produce less of it. It's a natural way to help the sleep cycle when you are jet-lagged, have insomnia or trouble STAYING ASLEEP, which was my problem. Took one last night and actually cut out the middle arousal for the first time in months. Was up at 1:10 and 4:45, finally a difference! That hasn't happened in literally months. I'm very optimistic, too, that it will get better and better as the weeks go on.

Would that be something that might work for you? If it helps you to stay asleep, and is not supposed to give you that groggy feeling in the morning that a sleeping pill can give you, maybe it would be worth a try. There are many sites on the Internet that give information about it. Some are even talking about it being a great anti-oxidant, although research is still being done. But there doesn't seem to be too many negatives about it, if any. Might be worth speaking to your doctor about. Maybe staying in a deeper sleep will help you go through the other sleep stages? I don't know, but your doctor might. Just figured I'd share that with you.

WillSucceed · Post by **WillSucceed** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:57 am

Carla:
My sleep studies both said that I was getting only about 3-4 minutes of REM per night. Since starting treatment, my memory has returned, the foggyness is gone, the confusion is gone and I feel 100% better.
I don't know if I'm getting REM now, but I have clear evidence that things are significantly better. I suspect that I am getting REM.

Stick with the treatment, it can only help you!

WAFlowers · Post by **WAFlowers** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:20 am

Lack of REM will make you cat-a-tonic.

Sorry for not being serious. Actually, I'm not sorry. Yes I am. No I'm not. Now I'm arguing with myself. Am not. Am too!

I believe that I read that REM sleep is required for the proper processing of new memories. IIRC, lack or REM will make it difficult to learn or remember new experiences. Certainly that was one symptom I experienced.

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:22 am

Bill,

Did it say anything about causing one to become overly gullible???

"Why on earth would I ever ask such a question," she asked.

And he replied...

cat-a-tonic · Post by **cat-a-tonic** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:51 am

Thanks for replying everyone! As far as the doctor's findings based on the lab reports, I spoke with one of the technicians last night and he seemed to think I would eventually go into REM. He said I would know it once I did, because I would feel really good upon wakening. Also, I seem to have more hypopneas than apneas - with one central apnea occuring on the second night. First night I had a lot of PLMs, second night not very many - but I was trying to stay on my back then too (I am normally a side sleeper).

I have used Melotonin before and it has helped some. However, my awakenings are a result of pain, so I am unable to stay asleep. Ambien has helped me more than anything else I have tried, including Benadryl. However, I do not like the increased tiredness that I have the next day - both Ambien and Benadryl caused this side effect.

The lack of REM affecting memories makes sense - I can forget something in an instant, which makes completing a task difficult. I was always told that Fibromyalgia sufferers were less likely to have the deep restorative sleep associated with REM.

I understand the affects antidepressants can have on sleep, unfortunately, this is one of the main avenues of treatment being used for Fibromyalgia patients. Since I have to run out right now - I will respond more to your posts later - thanks guys!

snork1 · Post by **snork1** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:59 pm

That seems an odd thing for a sleep doc to say.

I thought one of the main restorative factors of CPAP therapy was that it does bring back REM sleep.

I was having NO REM sleep before CPAP, according to my sleep studies, which I believe is a VERY common situation for those with Sleep Apnea. I thought it was just forgetting that I dreamed at all in recent years.

I have LOTS of REM sleep now with CPAP. Although sometimes I sleep so deeply I will only vaguely remember dreaming at all.

I also use Melatonin and it seems to help, and have been using Gabapentin in low doses lately for RLS.

Of course any drugs you add to the mix generally take their toll on REM sleep. But you have to weigh the tradeoffs.

christinequilts · Post by **christinequilts** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:25 pm

cat-a-tonic wrote: I was always told that Fibromyalgia sufferers were less likely to have the deep restorative sleep associated with REM.

You might want to ask your doctor if they noticed an Alpha Wave Intrustion/AlphaDelta SLeep on either of your studies. It is fairly comon with firbromyalgia and other chronic pain problems. In simple terms its resting but awake brain waves popping up in deeper stages of sleep....stages 3 & 4, which are the restorative sleep phases. I've read that some people do better with it on certain meds- I have a fairly severe case on top of severe CSA (Central Sleep Apnea). Mine is more then likely a result of my chronic knee pain so the best thing they can do is to try to keep my pain as controlled as possible.

elliejose · Post by **elliejose** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:27 am

Cat,
I also waken a lot from pain. Went to the doc this week. He prescribed celebrex, ( I took bextra until it was off market) and something which was new to me (Lyrica) to take at bedtime. First night I slept well. Second night I overslept and was late for work. Slept through 2 alarm clocks. So I will not use that except for weekends. But it really seemed to help the pain. And to sleep. Also curious as to whether anyone else here has taken this particular drug? After reading the pamphlet with it, I wasn't sure I wanted to take it. But gave it a try anyway.

What happens if you never go into REM?

What happens if you never go into REM?

Re: What happens if you never go into REM?

REM and Antidepressants