BiPAP autoSV User needs help

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:04 am

You can probably tell from our earlier comments, that we also think a pressure increase makes sense: 1) experimentally raise EPAP (to IPAP average) to stent any suspected obstructive hypopneas; and/or 2) experimentally raise IPAP min (to IPAP average) to ventilate suspected central undershoot that is not efficiently addressed by the servo algorithm. Then as a fall-back they can resort to a manual backup rate and fixed inspiratory time.

Sir Banned- Would you mind getting your message board login working? A guest login somehow isn't befitting someone with your heartwarming message board history.

Mr Capers- your rise time is currently set to either 2 or 3... right?
Sir Banned wrote:(Remember Inspiration Time and Rise Time are additive for Total Inspiration time).
According to the provider manual, there is only one parameter called "inspiratory time" and another interrelated parameter called "rise time"---with that "rise time" depicted simply as a lesser portion of "inspiratory time". There is no third additive parameter that Respironics calls "total inspiration time". Nor do the waveform diagrams represent a third additive parameter.

And, in fact, they mention one caveat of selecting a long rise time is that it may deplete too large a portion of the set inspiratory time---making for very little time spent at targeted IPAP peak.

A blast from the past relating to I time considerations with respect to overall BPM:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35298&p=304575&#p304575
two general characteristics of inspiration time have to do with either achieving a certain tidal volume, a certain I:E ratio, or both.

In certain cases of COPD, for instance, clinicians might try to achieve more expiratory time by influencing the I:E ratio. To accomplish that they need to factor BPM and IT together. BPM yields the total time spent in I + E. Of that total time spent in I + E, a set inspiratory time (IT) will drive the ratio of how much time is spent in each. The IT setting will specifically account for time spent in inspiration; and almost all of the remaining time will be allotted for expiration (there are also slight intervening pauses between respiratory phases only slightly contributing toward that total remaining respiratory time).

Alternately, IT can be used to help with central dysregulation since IT directly helps regulate the amount of inspired O2---while indirectly regulating the rate of expired CO2 (via expiratory time implicitly defaulted or remaining by employing the IT and BPM parameters). A shorter IT or inspiratory time period amounts to less O2 volume inspired, which can supposedly help with periodic breathing. Again, if IT is employed toward I:E ratio-adjustment (by also utilizing the BPM parameter), a clinician can even influence CO2 expiration rates via the time allotted for the expiratory phase relative to inspired volume. However, that's not the same as directly influencing CO2 retention via additional appropriate methods.

So when the autoSV titration guide says "Set Fixed Rate to a minimum of 10 BPM... Start I time: 1.2 seconds" we can at least see how those 10 BPM and 1.2 second IT parameters play against each other ratio-wise: here the I:E ratio would be 1.2 sec to 4.8 sec (which can be numerically reduced to an I:E ratio of 1:4). However, that "minimum of 10 BPM" recommendation tells us that the starting ratio might favor a somewhat smaller E number. Regardless, if we compare that against a default setting of 1:1 or say an acceptable spontaneous 1:2 ratio, we can see that Respironcics implies that central apneas can be countered, at least in part, with comparatively shorter inspiratory volumes and times.

However, also bear in mind that the AutoSV's BPM setting is only a backup setting, and that faster spontaneous breathing rates by the patient will diminish time spent in E while still holding the above 1.2 second inspiratory time constant. Recall that BPM is typically set at the patient's spontaneous rate minus 2. Here setting BPM rate much closer to a machine-affected or influenced spontaneous rate can allow the clinician to additionally impose tighter control over time spent in E. Allowing for BPM as a non-salient backup rate (as opposed to either tightly enforced or purely timed mode scenarios), the above spontaneous I:E ratios can thus be more accurately estimated during periods that are free of central dysregulation by also including that BPM offset of 2 into the above ratio calculations. Easier yet: just calculate that I:E scenario of a non-salient backup rate using the patient's measured spontaneous BPM, rather than employing machine backup rate along with spontaneous offset.

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Kiralynx » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:59 am

Guest wrote:I have no issue with EPAP=IPAP Min. What I take exception to is EPAP=IPAP Min at 5cmH20. 5cmH20 is a non(sense) setting. 5cmH20 is BS. No wonder this guy is having trouble.

Banned,

A low EPAP isn't necessarily an issue. I was originally set at EPAP=10, MinIPAP = 10, MaxIPAP = 14, and could not, COULD NOT breathe out against that EPAP. The struggle to breathe out created apneas. When my EPAP was lowered to 6, the apneas disappeared entirely, except for the very rare one occurring at periods of high stress from other sources.

I do still have occasional clusters of periodic breathing for which I, as yet, have no clue as to the cause. I've had personal issues which have prevented my researching this as much as I would like. However, I hope to learn from this thread, as well.

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Mr Capers » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:57 pm

Hi Everyone,

I've got quite a bit to respond to.
SWS asked:
Mr Capers- your rise time is currently set to either 2 or 3... right?
I don't know! I can't find rise time in my prescription and am not familiar enough with the provider manual to find out how to look it up. Can you help?

I can see the focus on a pressure increase of either EPAP or IPAPmin to see if either addresses all those hypopneas. I've also noted that Respironics protocol starts titration with EPAP set at 4 cm H2O and IPAPmin set the same. After waiting 20 minutes for the patient to stabilize with these settings, titration begins.

Now, none of this applies to Kaiser, in my limited experience. The sleep study is "at home," I don't know if they use a sleep lab at all. At home is clearly less expensive. After the sleep study, you get a form letter telling you you have OSA and you are scheduled for a group "class." For all the patients in my group (we were "batch" processed - I was reminded of induction into the military), were sent home with a data-capable BiPAP. We were to sleep with this machine for a week. (This is the "titration" phase for Kaiser - as opposed to a split night sleep study. When we returned with the machine they downloaded the smart card, set up a prescription and we were sent home to wait for a call from Apria to go get our machine.

The same model was followed for me, except that a standard BiPAP could not treat my 46% central apnea component. When I came back with this standard issue machine, there were red faces, I'm pretty sure, since I needed a SV. However, they had only 1 machine in the department and it had been signed out the previous day for three weeks! So, the chief RT was going to send me home with no machine at all, to wait for three weeks! I pleaded (there had been other delays in this process, some as long as six weeks) and was given a BiPAP to use. No humidifier. After two weeks of ineffective therapy with this machine, I had exterior sores on my nose from the mask, nosebleed most mornings from non-humidified air, and felt awful. I called the department, and actually got a return call from the Sleep Doctor himself! He agreed to prescribe a BiPAP SV and did so that day, a Friday. When I asked about data capability he told me that seeing my data was not a good idea as I might "obsess on a number" because I didn't have the clinical judgement to understand the data. I explained that as a diabetic I had reviewed my blood sugar data for ten years, had studied statistics with a Nobel prize nominee, and provided my PCP with blood sugar and blood pressure graphs with moving averages when I had an appointment. I got the machine on Monday. I was so grateful to get my BiPAP autoSV with a humidifier that I accepted the machine.

If this meeting with the Kaiser RT doesn't have a positive outcome, I can try the next facility, which is about 50 miles away round-trip. Or, I can try one of the other sleep doctors here, and just pay out of pocket.

In looking back over my posting of nightly reports, did I make them too small to read? Does anyone know how to capture the screen shots that run off the page? I've been shrinking the report pages until they fit the screen and that is what makes them so small.

Let me again express my gratitude for all the thought that has gone into your replies.

Happy Naps,
Mr Capers

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-SWS
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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:27 pm

Mr Capers wrote: SWS asked:
Mr Capers- your rise time is currently set to either 2 or 3... right?
I don't know! I can't find rise time in my prescription and am not familiar enough with the provider manual to find out how to look it up. Can you help?
Mr Capers- see section 2.2.2.1 in the User Manual here: http://global.respironics.com/UserGuide ... 040200.pdf
Mr Capers wrote: Now, none of this applies to Kaiser, in my limited experience. The sleep study is "at home," I don't know if they use a sleep lab at all. At home is clearly less expensive. After the sleep study, you get a form letter telling you you have OSA and you are scheduled for a group "class." For all the patients in my group (we were "batch" processed - I was reminded of induction into the military), were sent home with a data-capable BiPAP. We were to sleep with this machine for a week. (This is the "titration" phase for Kaiser - as opposed to a split night sleep study. When we returned with the machine they downloaded the smart card, set up a prescription and we were sent home to wait for a call from Apria to go get our machine.
That sounds fine for ordinary OSA, IMHO. However...
Mr Capers wrote: ...except that a standard BiPAP could not treat my 46% central apnea component.
That's the point where an in-lab PSG titration really should have entered the picture IMHO.
Mr Capers wrote:If this meeting with the Kaiser RT doesn't have a positive outcome, I can try the next facility, which is about 50 miles away round-trip. Or, I can try one of the other sleep doctors here, and just pay out of pocket.
Well, if it were me I would ask whether they have any sleep techs who are trained to titrate patients on your autoSV titration. It sounds to me as if they might unrealistically hope that the BiPAP autoSV can automatically perform a compete titration---and it cannot automatically titrate an obstructive component. If they happen to have someone on their staff who knows how to manually titrate patients on an autoSV, then consider insisting that Kaiser schedule you in the lab with that clinician. At the very least some methodical home-based trial-and-error is warranted----under the auspices of a clinician who knows what they're doing.

Treating you like a "set it and forget it" patient is NOT acceptable. Sadly, we get plenty of those patients---bona fide clinical refugees really--- on the various apnea boards. Damn good thing the FDA is cracking down on little things like mask and humidifier prescriptions---instead of addressing the bona fide elephant in the room that's tragically trampling so many patients. Go figure...

Guest

Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Guest » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:35 pm

Mr. Capers,

Let the peanut gallery warriors walk you down the road a bit.

Your BiPAP Auto SV is currently set-up with EPAP = IPAP Min < IPAP Max. Those settings are providing you with CPAP as a base therapy. Nothing more. With CPAP as base therapy the device may automatically provide pressure support with inspiratory pressures between IPAP Min and IPAP Max to normalize your ventilation during sleep disordered breathing events. However, you are receiving zero benefit in terms of addressing centrals. To compound the uselessness of your current CPAP base therapy treatment, an EPAP of 5cm is a pointless. No benefit to CPAP base therapy can be achieved at less than EPAP 7cmH2O. For all intent and purposes you are just as well off to goto bed with no CPAP device at all. Functionally this machine is doing nothing for you.

To address your issues you will need to put your BiPAP Auto SV in Servo Ventilation mode (EPAP < IPAP Min < IPAP Max). Only then will you realize any benefit. You have the providers manual. With the data capability you currently have, you can titrate yourself to the full functionality of the BiPAP Auto SV easily (unless the thought of that scares you, and it shouldn't). Just ask..

Kaiser has done what they can and given you the best device available. It's time to cut them loose and take charge of your life and your therapy.

The peanut gallery waits. Good luck.

Banned

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Guest » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:04 pm

Mr Capers wrote:So, the chief RT was going to send me home with no machine at all..
OOps.. I suck. Functionally speaking, that's exactly what the chief RT did.

Banned

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Mr Capers » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:46 pm

SWS,

Rise time is set to 3.

Mr Capers

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Mr Capers » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:59 pm

Hi SWS, Banned, et. al.,

Let me answer the specific question first. Rise time is set to 3. BTW SWS, the correct section of the User Manual is 6.2.2.1 on page 21. You might need this if you are counseling another challenged PAPer. Any adjustment needed to rise time?
Mr Capers wrote: ...except that a standard BiPAP could not treat my 46% central apnea component.
That's the point where an in-lab PSG titration really should have entered the picture IMHO.

How right you are

[/quote] Well, if it were me I would ask whether they have any sleep techs who are trained to titrate patients on your autoSV titration. It sounds to me as if they might unrealistically hope that the BiPAP autoSV can automatically perform a compete titration---and it cannot automatically titrate an obstructive component. If they happen to have someone on their staff who knows how to manually titrate patients on an autoSV, then consider insisting that Kaiser schedule you in the lab with that clinician. At the very least some methodical home-based trial-and-error is warranted----under the auspices of a clinician who knows what they're doing.

That is my hope for this RT meeting. I know the lead tech in the department, not a lot of hope there. She told me that only one of them had been trained on the BiPAP SV - the one I am to meet. I really hope to get some help from her. My bias to work with these people is not just for the sake of convenience, it would be great to have an ally locally. I really envy your relationship with your Doctor. I'm OK with my PCP, but the sleep Dr. is another matter.

Now, for a big and critical issue - I see that Banned is pressing for self-titration (unless I'm too scared to try it), and you (SWS) appear to be counseling more of a "work with" approach to a joint series of titration experiments. Have I got it?

So far as my current machine settings go, I would have to say the evidence is that I've had about two months of successful therapy. I had few to no apneas of any type, felt better in many ways, and except for mask agony, thought the PAP therapy was an overall good thing. So, I cannot agree with Banned, that my machine settings were totally wrong, expletive deleted, etc. If my settings were that far off, would I not continue to suffer from apnea? My sleep study reported I had 6.6 obstructives/hr, 15.9 centrals/hr, and 10.3 hypopneas/hr. My total was 34.7/hr, much too high a figure to be reduced to less that 1 per night, (zero most nights) if my settings were so completely wrong.

Right now, I'm on course for a hopefully cooperative meeting on the 24th. If that fails, then I well be in the market for some serious self-titration

Thanks again, and Happy Naps,
Mr Capers

SWS, I do not doubt your accuracy in using vast blowups of my report of 11-10 to pronounce that my hypopneas precede my episodes of periodic breathing. What is your analysis of some of the other report pages where hypopneas appear to de-coupled from periodic breathing?

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:49 pm

Mr Capers wrote: the correct section of the User Manual is 6.2.2.1 on page 21.
Thanks for correcting my typo.
Mr Capers wrote: Any adjustment needed to rise time?
3 is just fine.
Mr Capers wrote: That is my hope for this RT meeting. I know the lead tech in the department, not a lot of hope there. She told me that only one of them had been trained on the BiPAP SV - the one I am to meet. I really hope to get some help from her. My bias to work with these people is not just for the sake of convenience, it would be great to have an ally locally.
I think that strategy sounds great.
Mr Capers wrote:Banned is pressing for self-titration (unless I'm too scared to try it), and you (SWS) appear to be counseling more of a "work with" approach to a joint series of titration experiments. Have I got it?
IMHO message board medical treatment is NOT better than state-of-the art medicine practiced by knowledgeable and caring professionals. The search for good clinicians is worthwhile IMHO----and even more important for someone with complicated sleep/health issues.
Mr Capers wrote:SWS, I do not doubt your accuracy in using vast blowups of my report of 11-10 to pronounce that my hypopneas precede my episodes of periodic breathing. What is your analysis of some of the other report pages where hypopneas appear to de-coupled from periodic breathing?
I don't see that same "hard" sequential H/PB pattern on the other graphs. But the graphs are clinically insufficient for even routine diagnostic purposes. Hence the advantage of getting into the lab for a proper BiPAP autoSV titration IMHO. Not to say the graphs can't be downright helpful: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46548&start=90#p419060

Good luck with your upcoming RRT visit!

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by rested gal » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:36 pm

banned as a guest wrote:No benefit to CPAP base therapy can be achieved at less than EPAP 7cmH2O.
A sweeping generalization like that is absolutely ridiculous, imho.

I have a great deal of admiration for "banned" regarding what he did in getting a machine for a sweet little girl (the URL that -SWS mentioned... the Laryssa topic.)

However, I'd take banned's pronouncements on settings with a grain of salt.

Using a machine does not in any way make a person an expert on that machine's settings.

It would not surprise me if you do need a higher EPAP, Mr Capers. I expect you do. But that does not mean EPAP less than 7 can be summarily dismissed with "No benefit" blah-blah'ing.

I agree absolutely with -SWS about how an "in-lab PSG titration really should have entered the picture " after such a high number of central apneas were scored in the in-home sleep study.

I also agree completely with this, including the sarcastic comment about the FDA and mask/humidifier prescriptions:
-SWS wrote:Well, if it were me I would ask whether they have any sleep techs who are trained to titrate patients on your autoSV titration. It sounds to me as if they might unrealistically hope that the BiPAP autoSV can automatically perform a compete titration---and it cannot automatically titrate an obstructive component. If they happen to have someone on their staff who knows how to manually titrate patients on an autoSV, then consider insisting that Kaiser schedule you in the lab with that clinician. At the very least some methodical home-based trial-and-error is warranted----under the auspices of a clinician who knows what they're doing.

Treating you like a "set it and forget it" patient is NOT acceptable. Sadly, we get plenty of those patients---bona fide clinical refugees really--- on the various apnea boards. Damn good thing the FDA is cracking down on little things like mask and humidifier prescriptions---instead of addressing the bona fide elephant in the room that's tragically trampling so many patients. Go figure...
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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Muffy » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:10 am

rested gal wrote:I'd take banned's pronouncements on settings with a grain of salt.
RG, you're far too harsh!

After all, look at the fine job he did with his last ASV titration:

Image

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by rested gal » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:34 pm

Muffy wrote:
rested gal wrote:I'd take banned's pronouncements on settings with a grain of salt.
RG, you're far too harsh!

After all, look at the fine job he did with his last ASV titration:


Yup. Whew.

Tossing a towel to new readers so they can sop up Muffy's dripping sarcasm.
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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by dsm » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:23 pm

Just saw this thread & agree that SWS has covered it pretty well.

To add some other related & worth reading comments follow this link, it adds some perspective
to the Bipap Auto SV discussion, esp re Centrals.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threa ... 43951.html

Also just to add a few thoughts re CPAP mode on a Bipap SV & Centrals. When placed in CPAP mode
the machine can still have SV activated (i.e. EPAP = IPAPmin < IPAPmax).

I understand that should a central occur, the machine even in CPAP mode has the ability to recognise
this because ...
1) It is tracking Av peak flow & 2) despite being in CPAP mode is also tracking rate

The way I believe it can address such centrals is that during the central the machine algorithm determines
that the current peak flow target is not going to be met & can then instantly raise IPAP pressure by up to 3 CMs,
(in that 1 breath and providing it hasn't exceeded IPAPmax). In the next breathing period time (as determined
by the current tracked or preset rate) it can raise IPAP by another 3 CMs & will do this raising of pressure
up to 3 times before stopping the increases (or before hitting IPAPmax setting). These SV pressure increases
immediately turn the machine from a CPAP into Timed Bilevel, which is the basic machine recommended for
Central regulation. It may be fair to call the SV a 'Timed CPAP' when in CPAP mode & SV is activated,

DSM

#2
One reason I can think of as to why a therapist might choose 'Timed CPAP' mode is if the patient is someone
who exhibits excessive extra Centrals when using bilevel mode. I don't don't believe it constitutes a large
portion of users but it seems a possibility. If the machine is in Timed CPAP mode & the users experiences a
Central, then immediately switching to bilevel mode (as described above) at least provides the opportunity to
clear the Central & because a central has already taken place, going into bilevel mode can't make it any worse.
Last edited by dsm on Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Capers
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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by Mr Capers » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:42 pm

Hi Muffy,

Your comments on my reports would be most welcome

Your post was a hoot

Happy Naps,
Mr Capers

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Re: BiPAP autoSV User needs help

Post by dsm » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:15 pm

Banned,

If Mr Capers was a classic case of OSA with some centrals then I can understand your exasperation re the Epap=IpapMin = 5 CMs,
but, that was a pretty powerful generalization you made.

Rested Gal has jumped on you for 2 reasons I can see, 1) it is politically incorrect to make such generalizations (no matter how
justified you feel from your perspective), and 2) AFAIKT there isn't enough info provided to show that Mr Capers doesn't have a
good reason to be on 5 CMs (even if his chart looks questionable). Sorry, but I think political correctness outweighs generalisation
in this thread so can understand RG's reaction.

Muffy's swipe was a bit unfair but characteristic, as I think we understand that Larryssa's chart from a Bipap Auto SV is not going
to be in any way comparable to an adult's as her tidal flow is marginally higher than a mouse's & under the threshold of accuracy
for that machine's various algorithms. It show her with 93% continuous OSA which could be construed as her being dead when really
she survived that night normally (for her). Also, it was understood that the machine you sent down could be used as a Bilevel due to
its configurability. Don't let the nature of that post bother you. Just let it fly away as it should.

Why on earth Muffy chose biting sarcasm to throw that chart at you I have NO idea as we all involved know (or should), that the
professionals at Laryssa's hospital produced it. You were innocently & generously back in CA. They gave it a try & we all agreed
(more with SWS input than from Muffy) that bilevel mode on a child who's tidal flow drops under 100ml, is not suited to SV mode
due to its inability to monitor such a tiny flow. The more I think of Muffy's inappropriate post the more dissapointed in it & 'him'
I get.

DSM
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