Any mask manufacturers on here?

[Driver59]

I was so impressed by Kristin from Devilbiss joining this forum. What a great way to get feedback from the end users of their products. I was wondering has there ever been a rep from any of the mask companies post on this forum? The mask is what makes a good machine truly effective. Wouldn't it be a wonderful opportunity to address some of the issues that we have with those things we strap to our face every night with someone who could possibly get positive changes made in our behalf? Do you think an e-mail invitation would get a response?
Don

[quiltweaver]

Great idea! What a huge bunch of research feedback from just the folks on this forum. Hey Swift LT designers, how about a redirection for that air outflow in your next version? Now, how old will I be when that happens?

[El Pap]

I believe DeVilbiss sells several different masks, e.g., this one: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/devilb ... dgear.html

It would be great if other manufacturers would participate here, but unfortunately I fear most consider the DMEs and sleep docs to be their customers, not us.

[DME Daddy]

If you have something to say about equipment and say it well, you can be sure it will be read by manufacturers.

[rested gal]

It would be great if other manufacturers would participate here, but unfortunately I fear most consider the DMEs and sleep docs to be their customers, not us.

Exactly.

The mask IS the single most important "success or drop out" factor in cpap treatment, imho. I doubt if many manufacturers would reallllly like to start talking directly to cpap users about masks. That might segue pretty quickly into, "Why don't you guys let us return unusable masks for full refund or exchanges until we find one that works, if the DME won't exchanging????"

They (the manufacturers) certainly read this message board regularly and may very well think about implementing good suggestions (as DME Daddy said) but I don't believe a manufacturer would want to enter very far into actual discussions with the end users about their masks.

The machines are a piece of cake to use, compared to the woes most people go through trying to find a mask that's comfortable and leakproof enough to use.

I've often thought that no mask should go to market until everyone involved in the design of the mask AND every officer of the company AND their spouses all have to wear the mask all night long for a full week. I think many masks would have made a speedy trip back to the drawing board.

Being able to "do cpap treatment" really does revolve almost entirely around the MASK, imho.

[johnnygoodman]

Howdy,

I predict that we'll will see manufacturers come to CPAPtalk in proportion to the impact and acceptance our Product Challenge have on the industry. It was well received at Medtrade. For everything else our industry is, its full of people who like to win and like to have the best stuff. For them (and us!) the Product Challenge is really cool.

If I was a product manager for a big CPAP manufacturer, I would be afraid to come here too. Here's why:

1. Right now, if its mask testing time in my company, I recruit 30 people, take them to a hotel, pay, give them fittings, make friends, buy dinner and ask them to fill out a form in the morning telling my boss that this is the best mask since sliced bread. My job depends on those positive evaluations flowing. I don't see a lot of people on CPAPtalk more concerned about getting dinner than they are about mask quality. Could be bad for me.

2. There's a saying in IT, "you can't get fired for choosing Microsoft". Remember that big CPAP manufacturer product managers live in a dog eat dog corporate world where there already is a process for making masks. The product manager who bucks that process and creates a product that is not extremely successful is gone. Until there's a new standard which is viewed as "safe" by the industry, no meaningful innovation will occur.

3. If I just post to CPAPtalk asking for mask ideas, I'm not going to get a focused answer. What mask are we talking about, is the person speaking representative of the "average" CPAP user in both intelligence and facial structure, is the person giving me info that would build a better masks or simply fix a one off problem, etc. There has to be an apples to apples system for gathering this information and presenting it, unfiltered, to everybody. Until there is, as a product manager I'm spinning my wheels in the mud even asking.

4. DMEs good. Internet evil. I can't be seen talking to the evildoers. They are ruining reimbursements for our industry. What'll my boss think?

Johnny

[Babette]

Johnny, the more I read you, the more I am blown away by your brain.

Very good points. And I think alot of us end users have never considered them. And boy do I see how right you are.

Stupid idea: I wonder how hard it might be to develop a "dream mask" (for ME, not everyone, just ME) and then go through one of those "invention" companies you see advertising on late night TV and try to get it manufactured?

I admit it's a stupid idea, but I wonder if it has a seed of hope in it?

Cheers,
Barbara

[Catnap]

I wonder how it would work if a company offered custom-made masks? (And if someone knows of one that does, PLEASE let me know!) I know I would be willing to pay a substantial amount for one that met my needs and truly fit. I mean, it's my LIFE on the line here.

[Driver59]

Johnny,
Very insightful response, I understand completely what you are saying. I guess I think strictly from an end user perspective
and not from the perspective of one who is depending on the next great idea being well recieved and making money for the company. So many factors involved that I never considered. Each cpap user has their own preference in mask type and individual facial features that enter into purchasing decisions. That makes a great mask for one unusable for someone else. There are a couple of things that I personally prefer that could be incorporated into mask design for most masks that I'll toss into the ring for consideration. I see that the Devilbiss Serenity has the capability of directing the escaping air flow so that it does not blow on your sleeping partner. My main complaint from my wife is air blowing in her face at night. I don't blame her, if it was the other way around, I would less understanding than she is. I have to pull the sheets over my head when I turn in her direction. Directable air flow, problem solved. I use a hybrid mask and that option isn't available on a hybrid. One of the main reasons I use the Mirage Liberty is it has a quick disconect where the hose swivel conects to the mask. If I need to get up during the night, I simply pop the swivel off do what I need to do and pop the swivel back in place and I'm back to sleep in no time. No need to remove the mask and have to try to get it back like I had it when I got up.
Maybe there are design patents that would keep these little convieniences from being more widely used. If so I understand,
just my personal wish list. Also, I have been wondering if memory foam could used in some way on masks seals. May be cost prohibitive or may not respond quickly enough to changes in the face when turning during the night. It is on the other hand extremely comfortable.
Thank you for your response and for supplying us with this wonderful forum and for the best place to purchase equipment.
Don

[OldLincoln]

2. There's a saying in IT, "you can't get fired for choosing Microsoft".

I remember when that used to be "for choosing IBM". They didn't listen and left the PC market they established so well (for that time). Microsoft hasn't listened and now they are threatened in every market in which they have a presence. GM doesn't listen and they will be in bankruptcy shortly. If the big OSA manufacturers don't quickly learn to listen, they will follow the same worn path.

[johnnygoodman]

Stupid idea: I wonder how hard it might be to develop a "dream mask" (for ME, not everyone, just ME) and then go through one of those "invention" companies you see advertising on late night TV and try to get it manufactured?

I admit it's a stupid idea, but I wonder if it has a seed of hope in it?

Cheers,
Barbara

One of my very favorite things about this job is that anyone with a crazy CPAP idea seems to show up on our doorstep. We used to be surprised but now its just part of the routine. Ever see Ghandi the movie where the priest shows up all that way from England to help and Ghandi isn't shocked? The priest asks why, expecting a pat on the head for his efforts. Ghandi says "I just do the right thing, and people show up." Amazing how true that is. After all, here all you CPAPtalkers are! Anyway, I diverge....now to the core of the thing.

Every week I get to sit down or talk to with someone who puts serious challenge to my comfortable perceptions of how CPAP should work. I've seen my share of custom mask solutions. I love the concept, as does just about anyone who hears about it. I am consistently underwhelmed by the results. When you get into the details, the number of variables that must be just right for a mask to fit at night is staggeringly complex and difficult. Say after 3 years you stagger out of your lab, delirious with joy, your custom mask fitting machine works! You've climbed the hill! Outside, you'd see a range of mountains labeled "DME" "Medicare" and "Traditional Reimbursement Model". If a DME can hand a patient a mask off the shelf that may fit and bill insurance for it, why do more? In any custom model, there has to be a measuring process/phase, and that isn't reimbursed by our system. If the way the system works now is moving mountains, getting a reimbursement code for a custom fit CPAP mask is getting to the moon.

At this point in their process, the noble innovator comes to us. They realize that the internet is the only way they are going to gain enough traction to have a successful business model. My father grills them on their processes and accuracy. Until recently, when fault was found, it killed the deal. Now, with the advent of Product Challenges, there is a force bigger and more important than our opinions. It can be used to iterate or to prove worth. We think this is going to make a big difference in the process and allow both traditional and start up CPAP makers to innovate at a faster pace. I think the next 5 years will be far better than the last 5 for CPAP users. I know that our company is focused on making this happen and I see shifts in others as well!

Johnny

PS Babette, you are too kind. I'd get absolutely run over by RG, SWS, DSM and co in an APAP algorithm debate (as would 99% of RTs). I can claim only that I'm smart enough to know who the boss of the industry REALLY is - and you guys had to teach me that too. I'll do the politics end of this thing if you guys will keep staggering me with the depth of your CPAP knowledge and setting the newbies on a good course. Deal?

PPS If I ever find or build a custom CPAP mask fitting solution that works, I'd be giving them out like candy to CPAPtalkers and getting feedback. CPAPtalk opinion: accept no substitute.

[Babette]

Johnny, I really appreciate you showing us the "back room" and educating US about YOUR process and your life.

I love the Ghandi analogy!!!!!!

I know for a fact there is a small population of people who would pay any amount of money for a custom made mask. Out of pocket. The proof of that is that those $2,000 and up dental devices continue to be sold.

It's not a large population. It's probably not enough to sustain anyone on that product alone. But it's there. If someone can figure out how to do it, they will come.

And I'll just bet that out of that process, some new innovations for "off the shelf" masks might arise.

But, obviously I can't bankroll this venture, and I wouldn't expect anyone else here to either.

I just like to sit here and speculate about it.

LOL,
Babs

[Babette]

Another stupid idea:

Morph a Swift LT with a Nasal Aire II - use the headgear and tubing system of the Swift LT, and the cannula prongs of the NAII.

Basically a Bravo, but with a center hose instead of side hoses.

Haven't a clue how that would go together.

Probably when you were done, you'd have a Headrest.

LOL,
B.

[jnk]

I think I may have just read a few posts that will be on a few corporate desks tomorrow morning.

Maybe someone should start a thread: "What Is Your Favorite Thing About Your Favorite Mask?"

[Babette]

My Favorite Things About My Favorite Masks:

Headrest: Exhaust blows straight up, not out at the bed partner. Center, over the head hose routing.

Nasal Aire II: Prongs fit into nose, creating good stable seal, with no pressure on upper lip or nostrils or face, thus no pressure sores. Over the head hose routing.

Swift LT: Center over the head hose routing, no hoses on the sides of the face to be laid on.

I think I want a Headrest with prongs inside my nose, instead of pillows outside my nares, and a customizable headgear configuration that includes a direct attachment to a chinstrap option. Like what I do with my NAII: http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p36/ ... aise/CPAP/

You could also do that with a PAP CAP: http://www.pur-sleep.com

Cheers,
Barbara