PurSleep Product Safety

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Debjax
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by Debjax » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:46 pm

ozij wrote:Since when is the physiology of cats an birds considered the equivalent of human physiology?

You'll notice, it was the bird that died of respiratory failure, and not the human who applied the oil. Those links are irrelevant to the question of how much of Pur-Sleep's oils enters the lungs when used as instructed, and what happens to human beings once those oils have entered their lungs int that amount.
...
Did you know that cooking with teflon pans can cause your pet birds to die? The teflon puts something into the air that is toxic to birds such as parakeets, especially if the pan is overheated or heated dry. So, not sure that using birds for a study on aromatic effects as an indicator of human affect is valid.

SAG's discussion of issues possible after volatile oils are rubbed on the skin is not really valid either, IMO. If you're rubbing it on the skin to cause those type of effect, you are probably using more than a few drops. One or two drops on a diffuser that is not only diffusing through your air intake, but also around the rest of the room.....minimal exposure..probably less than what that Glade air freshener is putting out in the room....

Bottom line, if you're worried about it...don't use it. If not, go ahead, but use common sense.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Time To Collect Data

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:27 am

Debjax wrote:SAG's discussion of issues possible after volatile oils are rubbed on the skin is not really valid either, IMO. If you're rubbing it on the skin to cause those type of effect, you are probably using more than a few drops.
Whoa, there Deb, hold your horses (hmmm, horses, I wonder...)! Aside from offing the 'keet, SAG never suggested putting undiluted volatile oils on skin! However, at some point it might be a good idea to offer all of the other methods of safely administering essential oils, including massage after proper dilution with carrier oils, bath additive, etc. because there's a bunch of things that can be done with EO to improve sleep.

My interest lies in determining what a safe dosage and route of adminstration should be. To do so, an examination of the entire spectrum is useful. I mean, if we say application of pure EO to the skin is hazardous or potentially so but application with diluted with carrier oil is safe, that's pertinent.

The same scientific method needs to be applied to inhalation. Lung tissues are far more delicate and susceptible to injury, so to simply say "Well, I didn't paint my alveoli with the stuff so I'm OK" is not sufficient. Close scrutiny of the effect as we move product away and reduce contact time needs to be utilized to determine safe administration.

Just so nobody thinks this is a "Gee, let's see what we can think of today to make Bret's life miserable", my concerns were presented 16 months ago as we walk down Memory Lane where I said, among other things, that
StillAnotherGuest wrote:I too, have become an Aromatherapy believer, so much so that the Aromatherapist will be delivering a presentation to our support group.

One of the questions, tho, concerns the delivery system, does it need to be that close to the machine ("if some is good, is more better?"). And at this time, my sources tell me "no." In the absence of available objective data, it would be beneficial to gather PFT data on those people who are using aromatherapy in this concentrated fashion for extended periods, especially with heated humidification. Screening spirometry at the annual physical isn't a bad idea, with diffusion testing done at the first sign of any symptoms related to shortness of breath. This should be done regardless, and if those people with 1500-2500 contact hours per year start developing symptoms, that information that should be reported out.

Meanwhile, for those of us who are a little more budget-minded, we might want to consider a more economical EO source. This guy has a heckuva profit margin:

A gallon (3785 ml) of essential oil costs 358.00:

Image

5 ml bottles (757 of them) cost 60 bucks. Selling this stuff on eBay:

Image

Clears $4,903.15.

Who's helping who here?

You can buy 2 to 6 times that quantity on Amazon, eBay, ANYWHERE, for the same price, and if the key component is the "Diffuser System", you can use the new and improved

"SAG 'n Sleep II"

including the revolutionary adhesive anchor system, that you can make yourself with items found around the house.

Image

For the less mechanically inclined, step-by-step instructions are available for $9.95 plus $4.95 shipping and handling.
There should be some people out there now with going on 3000 hours of contact time and I'm dying to see some objective data.

BTW, since these are difficult economic times, I am offering a $5.00 Rebate for the Instruction Pak for "Sag 'n Sleep II".

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

jnk
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by jnk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:56 pm

I find this entire thread particularly interesting, even though I don't use PurSleep, or plan to ever do so. Nothing against it. I'm just the kind of guy who doesn't like smelly stuff.

I usually tend mentally to take sides with whichever posters in a thread I personally judge as representing the voice of reason. I have read some threads in which none of the posters seemed to represent that voice, but this thread, in my opinion, is chock full of posters approaching the same question from perfectly reasonable positions, just different angles.

Here is my take, for whatever it is, or isn't, worth. It's a little wordy, but that never stopped me before.

Life is full of risks. Some risks can be quantified. Others can't. And rarely will everyone make the same judgments on what is just plain everyday risky versus what is too risky. I respect the science of attempting to quantify day-to-day risks. But when it comes to any product that can be used by different people in different ways, it would take one heck of a grant to set up any kind of useful study, seems to me. That doesn't mean everyone should assume any product is perfectly safe, or assume any product must not be safe enough simply because of a lack of studies. It means that in a world full of chemicals, few chemicals can be confirmed perfectly safe, so each person's version of common sense has to take it from there until some decent study proves otherwise. I for one truly appreciate SAGs bringing up the time factor and the pressurized air factor in combination. Hadn't thought of those. (That's why he gets the big bucks.) But I would still buy the product, myself, if I thought it made my life better.

Then again, I drive on the BQE. I eat red meat, sometimes undercooked. I know no study will ever prove either of those decisions are "safe." After all, no truly sane person drives on the BQE. I still do it. And I don't worry about it. Or try not to worry about it, anyway. If I needed a study to prove the safety of everything I used and did, I would be paralyzed. So I think that all the questions asked about this product are perfectly valid questions, but still fall into the category of "questions without answers," like most such questions. Throwing up a red flag can be useful. But only in the context of all the red flags all around us every day. Pointing to a question mark can be useful, but that doesn't mean one can assume the answer is "yes" or "no" on safety. So I would think about it in the same way I think about everything every day.

I say that if your life seems better with smelly stuff around you, buy smelly stuff and use it within reason according to your own best educated judgment. I think putting gobs of petroleum jelly up your nose is much more risky than putting a couple of drops of smelly stuff nearby you can just barely smell. But hey, that's only my personal risk assessment for my life. I can't prove it. And I respect other decisions.

I will say this though: SAG, please be careful putting all that petroleum jelly and volatile oils around the edges of your shingles. Too many dead woodpeckers could raise suspicians and get your property declared a hazardous waste dump, especially up there in your state, I think. And you could slip and fall doing it, too, though I have no studies to prove that one way or the other.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Madness! (Let's See If That Keyword Helps)

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:13 am

jnk wrote:Then again, I drive on the BQE... After all, no truly sane person drives on the BQE.
HAH! Try the Van Wyck getting to Kennedy some Friday night! You'll meet a whole new group of interesting people!

BTW, went to town the other night to see "Jersey Boys"-- great show.

Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) is carving out it's own place in sleep medicine, and will undoubtedly have (already has?) a major role:

Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine Treatments by Patients with Obstructive Sleep Apnea Hypopnea Syndrome

And again, almost all of the sleep-hygiene techniques could be considered forms of CAM.

But breaking down the components of EO, some of them can be particularly harsh on the airway, for instance

Phenols

where
Prolonged inhalation of vapor concentrations in the range of 30 to 60 ppm causes respiratory difficulties, lung damage, loss of weight, and paralysis [Clayton and Clayton 1982].
Effects on Humans: The effects of phenol exposure in humans are similar to those produced in animals: systemic absorption causes central nervous system impairment and liver and kidney damage; local effects include irritation of the eyes, skin and mucous membranes [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Because of its low volatility, phenol does not pose a serious inhalation hazard in the occupational setting; the skin is a primary route of entry [Hathaway et al. 1991; Parmeggiani 1983]. A 32-year-old man died 10 minutes after spilling a strong solution of phenol over his scalp, face, neck, shoulders, and back. There was coagulation necrosis of the skin and left eye, acute dermatitis, and acute passive congestion of the lungs, liver, spleen, and kidneys [NLM 1992]. An oral dose of 1 gram of phenol many be lethal to humans; however, in exceptional cases, patients have survived the ingestion of 65 grams of pure phenol or 120 grams of the crude product. Roughly 50 percent of all reported cases have been fatal. Death may be rapid and usually results from respiratory failure [Clayton and Clayton 1982]. Chronic phenol poisoning is characterized by systemic disorders such as digestive disturbances, nervous system effects, and possibly by skin discoloration and eruptions; the prognosis is grave when there is extensive damage to the liver and kidneys [Parmeggiani 1983]. Concentrated phenol solutions are severely irritating to the human eye and cause conjunctival swelling; the cornea becomes white and loses sensation. Loss of vision has occurred in some cases. In addition to systemic effects, contact with the solid or liquid can produce chemical burns. Erythema, edema, tissue necrosis, and gangrene have been reported [Hathaway et al. 1991].
As soon as o.'s mass spect gets to her from EBay, we can look at concentrations and then make scientific decisions. If the phenol concentration and total intake is OK, then we can move on to the next component.

Once we get to the terpenes, however, there may be some interesting discoveries, such as:

Hey, This Stuff Might Be Pretty Good!

And seriously, save money, use SAG n' Sleep II with stuff from Marge (shameless plug for Nature's Gift) and just stick it someplace else in the room. This level of concentration shouldn't be used like a Bong ("more is better" is the oldest sales trick in the book. This was clearly demonstrated when "Head and Shoulders" printed
Directions: Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Posting From The ED (Frying Pan To The Head)

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:38 am

It has been brought to my attention that some of the more "manly" users of aromatherapy are a little concerned about what would happen to their "image" if caught using Sag 'n Sleep II. And to be honest, "Muffy" got a little out of sorts after explaining to her why she didn't have any Sag 'n Sleep II left to do whatever it is she does with them things.

Anyway, for those image-conscious men, and my own health and safety, I would like to introduce

SAG 'n Sleep III

Image

How manly is that?

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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ozij
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by ozij » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:18 am

What is the BQE and what is the percentage of phenols in a drop of EO?

I've figured one important thing from this discussion: Since we are discussing something that is absorbed in your body, and does not only effect your sense of smsll - I'm going to pay attention to that tendency to stop smelling something even when it's there. I'll trust it to be there.

There are few things of which you can say "the more the better" without limitation - and few of those are material things. As far as Pur-Sleep goes - even they recommend a limit of 5 drops.

By the way, Jeff, I loved your quip about the tech thinking you were fixed, any you turning out bipap (on another thread, I know... )!

O.

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StillAnotherGuest
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The Road To Jericho (Or Would You Take The LIE?)

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:40 am

ozij wrote:What is the BQE
It's kind of an old road, since Moses built it:

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/brooklyn-queens/

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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StillAnotherGuest
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Show Me The Science!!

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:45 am

ozij wrote:As far as Pur-Sleep goes - even they recommend a limit of 5 drops.
As you know, sleep is my hobby, pulmonary physiology is my job.

What are the qualifications of "they"?

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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ozij
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by ozij » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:24 am

Thanks for the road info. I didn't realize Moses managed to go by your way...

My point must have been unclear about the 5 drops.
I was only pointing out that even the Pur-Sleep recommendation ("they" in my above post refered to the company) is not for an unlimited amount. That has nothing to do with anyones qualifications - nor is it a statement by me of should or should not be done.. It is a fact.

Now for the scientific data:
What is the precentage of phenols in a drop of EO?

O.

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Last edited by ozij on Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
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Good advice is compromised by missing data
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swcompassionate
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by swcompassionate » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:08 pm

SAG,

I never meant any disrespect by my comments. I am so sorry to hear about your difficulties with exposures to a majority of products, cleaners, etc. I hope that living close to the ocean is helping with the breathing difficulties that you experience on a daily basis. I think you called it environmental illness. I do hope things get better for you. I know I enjoy pur-sleep and it might be worth and investigative study to study the long term effects of the essential oils. I am not the owner I just enjoy their product. Hopefully, you find success with the CPAP without the extra smell help. Good luck with your treatment and I hope you find the answers you are looking for here on this thread. Many others are much more educated about this topic than myself. Good luck wished to you.

Maria

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Debjax
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Re: Time To Collect Data

Post by Debjax » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm

StillAnotherGuest wrote:Whoa, there Deb, hold your horses (hmmm, horses, I wonder...)! Aside from offing the 'keet, SAG never suggested putting undiluted volatile oils on skin!
You quoted a source that discussed applying EO to skin, causing irritation....to cause irritation, it would probably be more than a drop or two, diluted or not.


My question is, and I suspect you are going to say that I am wrong, but hey, if it walks like a duck....is what is your problem with the product that you are lobbying so hard against it?

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StillAnotherGuest
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PurSleep Product Hazards

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:40 pm

swcompassionate wrote:SAG, I never meant any disrespect by my comments.
I never thought that in the least, Maria! And actually, I'm fairly healthy (TBTG), but thanks for your comments.

I hope I've made it clear that I am a big proponent of CAM, including aromatherapy. My sources tell me that Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram are particularly helpful to aid in relaxation and sleep (and not just stuff that "smells good"). Nature's Gift has all these, and a blend of all four called SleepEase that might be worth a shot.

BTW, Effexor is a great drug to generate insomnia and destroy sleep architecture.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

jnk
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Re: Time To Collect Data

Post by jnk » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:14 pm

Debjax wrote: . . . your problem with the product . . .
Debjax,

SAG may not choose to address that question. But, if he doesn't mind, I think I will.

I have a feeling that if you or I used this forum to spread the word on a product of ours, we could expect our product(s) to receive the exact same scrutiny. And I think that's healthy. A public service of sorts.

I'm new here, so all I know about SAG is what I've read in the forums (well, unless he was that guy I had the fender-bender with on the Van Wyck a few Fridays ago ), but it seems to me that his red flags and question marks aren't personal. They're strictly business, even if, as in this case, they happen to touch on a specific business. If he has some hidden agenda, I haven't discovered it yet. (Or, wait, could that be the real "big secret"? Hmmmmm.) I don't think he's out to get the petroleum jelly industry with his pneumonia heads-up, either. He doesn't make one penny here warning us against possible dangers to our lungs.

Frankly, I think he just has a thing for lungs.

jeff

-SWS
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Re: PurSleep Product Safety

Post by -SWS » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:46 pm

jnk wrote:I have a feeling that if you or I used this forum to spread the word on a product of ours, we could expect our product(s) to receive the exact same scrutiny. And I think that's healthy. A public service of sorts.
I agree entirely with that point. The healthy airing of multiple opinions has always been what this message board does so well. No offense to Sleep Guy, but this message board justifiably should never be a Pure Sleep "group think" society.

No offense to SAG, but I personally fail to see any scientifically substantiated risk in using Pure Sleep. However, to SAG's credit, I think we can see this underlying message in his unpopular argument: Pure Sleep is essentially unknown and untested regarding long-term health effects.

And I personally think that opinion deserves to be aired on a public message board. In addition, SAG seems to have incorporated some pretty good scare tactics, hypeboles, and even some fairly decent animal imagery into his argument...

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StillAnotherGuest
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First Button On The Left...

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:33 am

Good to see you, -SWS! So are you doing better or what? If things haven't improved, maybe a trip to "The First City" for "A Second Opinion" is in order!
-SWS wrote:No offense to Sleep Guy, but this message board justifiably should never be a Pure Sleep "group think" society.
Or a beta site for unproven medical devices (witness the PurSleep 1.0 design, the "in-line diffuser", which was suddenly pulled off the market)(one of which fell apart within the circuit, nearly doing in our own beloved dsm!).

Or a Clinical Trial for the
-SWS wrote:long-term health effects
He's the guy that put the Clinical Study together. I'm simply calling for abstracts.

BTW, anyone see bookwrm63? She might be a good poster to hear from.
-SWS wrote:I personally fail to see any scientifically substantiated risk in using Pure Sleep.
Again, the concern is not the concept of aromatherapy, just the "PurSleep" method of delivery. Essential oils can be safely and effectively administered in a number of different ways to encourage sleep. And aromatherapy need not be delivered in the concentrations and duration encouraged by SleepGuy (using his own citations).
-SWS wrote:SAG seems to have incorporated some pretty good scare tactics, hypeboles, and even some fairly decent animal imagery into his argument.
But nothing incorrect. Unlike stuff like this:

https://www.cpap.com/cpap-faq/ALL.html#295
Can I Use Other Essential Oils?
No. Since the carefully formulated Pur-Sleep line of 100% pure essential oils have been selected from the FDA GRAS list and are known or believed to have properties and qualities that support relaxation and sleep and have complementary aromatic qualities it is highly recommend that you use only Pur-Sleep essential oils in the Passive Diffuser.
So here's the SAG FAQs and Facts:

Can I Use Other Essential Oils?

Absolutely. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram are particularly helpful to aid in relaxation and sleep (and not just stuff that "smells good"). Nature's Gift has all these, and a blend of all four called SleepEase that might be worth a shot. Just use caution in their application and administration.

I Got A Little Good News, And I Got A Little Bad News...
-SWS wrote:hypeboles

-SWS wrote:Attention Newcomers: Welcome to our "multi-annual" Palabration Celebration!
Yeah, but "Madness" is averaging 900 views a day. Oh well, no secret what sells newspapers.

SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.