Going Commando

[ColinP]

I just got back from holiday, which mostly consisted of hiking the Otter Trail. It's a 5 day hike along the coast, and while the distances are quite short, it can be a quite tiring as the terrain is pretty tough.

I had my three daughters with me, ranging in age from 17 to 11, and as this was the first time any of them had hiked overnight, I was carrying a little more first aid (mostly for blisters) than I usually would have. I also carried the 11yo's sleeping bag, as she is just too small to manage it. In addtition, I was carrying about 30kgs more fat than I when I last hiked (about 15 years ago). So I had to make a difficult decision, and that was to not even try to find a lightweight solution for my CPAP, and to go without for the four nights on the trail.

The first night was a battle - I woke up many times, as soon as I started snoring, and at about 2am I had to go and sit outside, as I was having a serious moment of anxiety. I used to wake up feeling claustrophobic and stressed and generally upset before I started CPAP - I suspect due to partially suffocating all the time. The second night I waited up till I was really tired (about 8:30 pm lol) and slept like a baby. The third night was OK (no anxiety attacks but not great sleep), and the fourth I hardly slept, tossed and turned all night, even though that was by far the toughest day's hiking. Essentially, my sleep was better than I had expected, but not great. I was happy to hose up the night we finished, and had a great night's sleep.

And to conclude - the hike itself was great. The kids enjoyed the challenges (the youngest took a while to get the point of the whole exercise), and we have some great memories stored away for the future. Of course, I will have to lose weight and build fitness if before I do it again - I took some strain lugging my gut up the many climbs, but I did make it, and I am feeling great for having gone out and given it a go. Many family and a few friends thought I was mad - too fat to make it, but they didn't count on my stubborness lol.

I'm considering limiting myself to shorter hikes for the immediate future - weekends perhaps with two nights on the trail, and am off to look on cpap.com to see what battery powered cpaps are out there. I suspect I'll do with for a while though, until the finances are a bit better.

Colin

Very off topic p.s. One of the highlights of the holiday was visiting my aunt and uncle after the hike, and finding a adolescent spotted eagle owl in their lounge - it was sitting in the road with no parents or nest to be found. My uncle is now in the process of rehabilitating it - it is catching insects already and will soon progress to mice before being released.

[Julie]

Well, it sounds like you had a great time (and are a great father!), but I really want to point out that while you may feel you "got away with" not having your machine with you, the fact that you are not in the most fit state, plus not having the machine is really not the smartest thing(s) to have tried to carry out - with 4 children along to potentially witness something very serious happening to their Dad. Having done it may make you feel proud (macho?), but maybe getting in shape before your next 'commando' outing, and finding some way to deal with the machine (or a smaller travel type) would be a better way to go. I know I'm coming off here all mean and nasty, which of course is not the intention (scaring you maybe ) but it's my interpretation of what I read even though I'm glad you had such a good time otherwise.

[ColinP]

I know I'm coming off here all mean and nasty, which of course is not the intention (scaring you maybe ) but it's my interpretation of what I read even though I'm glad you had such a good time otherwise.

No, you're not mean and nasty, and yes, you’re right, there was risk involved. Having agreed on that, I would probably make the same decision again. I knew from the start that CPAP was going to be difficult or impossible on the trail, but am fairly philosophical about risk. Life itself involves risk, and I'm not going to stop living completely just because I have OSA. I honestly don’t know if there is a CPAP solution which would last 4 nights and could be carried in a backpack, and if there is, I haven’t found it. As I said, I’ll probably restrict myself to shorter hikes in the future, but if I get an opportunity to do a really memorable longer one, I’ll probably take a chance and go for it. I’ve never slept well while hiking anyway – it’s far too uncomfortable, and I bargained on being short of sleep and a tad ratty towards the end of the hike.

[roster]

Not an inspiring story.

Humans like to take trips like that for the regenerative effects on mind and body. To do it without cpap makes it degenerative.

[Slinky]

Hey, ColinP. Maybe not the smartest thing you've ever done but .... thumbs up for having made it thru and enjoying yourself as you did so.

[jnk]

Glad you made it back alive. If you insist on going out without a machine, you might at least buy a two dollar boil-and-bite mouthpiece (and maybe a chinstrap to hold your teeth in the mouthpiece) to hold your jaw forward, and then find a way to rig up some kind of a sleep wedge to sleep at an angle, or use the tennis-ball method to keep from ending up on your back. There will still be risk--maybe even high risk, depending on many factors. But that might lessen the risk a few points, and inexpensively, if it is impossible to use a machine in an emergency. Just my two cents from the gallery.

[skittles]

I had to laugh at the Subject Line on your post.

Your "Going Commando", and what my sons call "Going Commando" are quite different

Take Care

Skittles

[kteague]

Yeah, I did a double-take on that title too. Oh, every time I see your avatar I yawn. Hmm, even speaking of it made me yawn again.

You might want to keep an eye on Rosemary's thread as she trials a TAP dental device to see if it's a viable alternative (along with side sleeping and inclined) to toting her cpap camping. Glad your trip turned out well - I bet your girls enjoyed seeing the bird up close and personal. I'm going to google spotted eagle owl now, didn't realize there was one named that. Guess I need to watch the nature channels more.

Kathy

[ozij]

I'm glad you all had a good time, Colin.

Here's one for the future: viewtopic/t9682/LINKS-to-Battery-operat ... utage.html - another one of Rested Gal's collections.

O.

[GuyK]

I understand both points of view -- not using *PAP is life-risking. On the other hand, I'm not sure ColinP had a choice. There aren't any lightweight options.

I'm facing the same thing for this coming summer -- a 5-day canoe trip in a remote area of Maine. There's no place to recharge, but I at least have the flexibility of carrying something larger. But, a 5-day capacity is needed. Backpacking would be worse.

[Goofproof]

I understand both points of view -- not using *PAP is life-risking. On the other hand, I'm not sure ColinP had a choice. Their aren't any lightweight options.

I'm facing the same thing for this coming summer -- a 5-day canoe trip in a remote area of Maine. There's no place to recharge, but I at least have the flexibility of carrying something larger. But, a 5-day capacity is needed. Backpacking would be worse.

We all have a choice, live for the day, or live tomorrow. Odd's are a few nights aren't going to kill you, but odd's aren't the only thing working against us, when doing a activity that we don't do every day we add a chance we will overload our bodies to the point that something quits. Camping in the wild is a poor place to have that happen. It's a long drive for 911. I'm sure the daughters wouldn't have wanted a trip to separate them from their dad. Jim

[roster]

I understand both points of view -- not using *PAP is life-risking. On the other hand, I'm not sure ColinP had a choice. Their aren't any lightweight options.

.......

There are many people who visit here casually, never register and never become well informed about sleep apnea. They could easily stumble across this thread and think it is ok to skip cpap for five nights. Some of these people have severe cases of apnea and some of them have other health issues. Five nights "without" could be disastrous for them.

One of our local gunshop owners tells the story of one of his customers who was a cpap user. The user and three of his friends drove to the Charlotte airport to fly to Colorado on a hunting trip. At the airport, the man realized he had forgotten to pack his cpap. Now he was faced with a decision, go home to get the machine and catch a flight the next day to rejoin his friends or go without the cpap.

He told his friends, "I will be ok without the cpap for a few days."

His friends had to make arrangements in Colorado to ship his body to Charlotte in a box.

Let's not encourage people to skip cpap.

[OldLincoln]

Colin, I know you had a great time and I'm glad you shared it with us. I am sorry to post the following but feel an obligation to do it so please try to understand I'm addressing a much larger population. Here's my bucket of cold water....

A few years ago, an overweight man decided to backpack with his family in the Sierras. They took it pretty easy and didn't go too high, but the guy had a heart attack (not his first) and died. The family was devastated and since he hadn't given them instructions just in case they were in a pickle deciding what to do. Since the guy weighed in the mid 200's carrying him was out of the question.

A couple of them hiked out and got help to the ranger station who got horses and went after him. The family had him laid out like a funeral parlor and by the time the Rangers arrived he was stiff as a board. So, how do you load and tie off a 250 stiff load onto a pack horse - with great difficulty. They had to stop and adjust the body several times but finally did get it done. After the struggle, the family was really pissed at the guy for putting them in that situation. He had put his adventure ahead of the family and they paid the price.

Some thoughts about what he could have done:
* picked a easier trip such as a campground, or if wilderness was a must, a guided pack trip where the leaders know how to deal with this stuff. It costs more but that's the price for the risk.
* Discuss the possibility and risk with the family before locking in the trip. It certainly involves them so they should get to decide if they are willing to do it.

One thing the Rangers told the family was that if someone dies on a trip to lay them over a log or at least in a U-Shape so they stiffen in the right shape to carry out.

My late (300+ lbs) brother-in-law had a heart attack within 100 yards of their drive in campground. He was fishing at the creek and it took a lot of men to carry him up the gentle slope and put him in the car. He survived it and lived another 10 years.

My advice is that any of us either with heart problems or seriously over weight should work up to an adventure to the point the risk is mitigated, then discuss what actions to take ahead of time and make sure those are doable. Don't do to your family what the guy who died did to his.

[ziggytosh]

Let's not encourage people to skip cpap.

I'm new to this and wouldn't presume to argue because I just don't know that much. But why not? I mean, i personally haven't skipped at all since starting therapy two months ago. But prior to that, I must have gone at least 10 years with undiagnosed apnea. I certainly have experienced low energy and some health issues (blood pressure, inflammation) -- all of which have gotten lots better since CPAP -- but my understanding is that these developed gradually over the 10 years. Aside from the discomfort and tiredness, is there really all that much damage that's going to be done in five days? Or is the concern that his health might have been at a tipping point and this could have pushed it over the edge? Should I be worried that if I do skip a night or two that I might have a heart attack or something?

[jnk]

Let's not encourage people to skip cpap.

I'm new to this and wouldn't presume to argue because I just don't know that much. But why not? I mean, i personally haven't skipped at all since starting therapy two months ago. But prior to that, I must have gone at least 10 years with undiagnosed apnea. I certainly have experienced low energy and some health issues (blood pressure, inflammation) -- all of which have gotten lots better since CPAP -- but my understanding is that these developed gradually over the 10 years. Aside from the discomfort and tiredness, is there really all that much damage that's going to be done in five days? Or is the concern that his health might have been at a tipping point and this could have pushed it over the edge? Should I be worried that if I do skip a night or two that I might have a heart attack or something?

Hey don't let being new stop you from arguing. I'm new, and I argue all the time! As long as you're nice about it. And you are. Besides, that is a really good question. The following is my understanding on it, for whatever it is worth:

Some with very mild problems may not have to worry. They are only deciding to be mildly suffocated. But if someone with moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnea went many years without diagnosis, every night he/she slept without a machine could have been the last, and once that person has the machine, sleeping without it just isn't all that bright, in the opinion of many.

When the body senses it is being suffocated, it panics. That panic can be enough to do a real number on an already weakened heart, for example, if that person decides to go several nights without PAP for some reason. The cumulative stress of several nights of alternating suffocation with panic can do more than longterm damage. It can do sudden, catastrophic damage too. And that can even happen, if everything is perfectly misaligned, with ONE night without PAP therapy.