Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Wulfman
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by Wulfman » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:49 pm

Browser wrote:
Wulfman wrote:I'd hate to have to read all nine pages of this thread to ask this question, if it's already been answered.......but......do you sleep on your back?


Den
I understand,wish I could clean it up. No I do not sleep on my back although I would like to.
OK. Then, I'd give it another night at the same setting.....without the "adult beverages"......and see what it looks like before moving up another cm. or two.

You DO have a healthy snore......
Haven't seen that much red since I started MY therapy. Only difference is that I had a low AHI.....1.0 or less.


Den
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
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MrSandman
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by MrSandman » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:07 pm

Wulfman wrote:
Browser wrote:
Wulfman wrote:I'd hate to have to read all nine pages of this thread to ask this question, if it's already been answered.......but......do you sleep on your back?


Den
I understand,wish I could clean it up. No I do not sleep on my back although I would like to.
OK. Then, I'd give it another night at the same setting.....without the "adult beverages"......and see what it looks like before moving up another cm. or two.

You DO have a healthy snore......
Haven't seen that much red since I started MY therapy. Only difference is that I had a low AHI.....1.0 or less.


Den
I dozed off on a plane once and awaken when we were in a dive cause the pilot thought he sucked some big birds in the engine ... But really I woke up and I think everyone was looking at me .

I think I will go back 12-16 or something like that cause my throat is raw. I may just go to 14...
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by -SWS » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Browser, I think in all likelihood two factors come into play regarding best machine choice for you: 1) you need pressures higher than you can comfortably tolerate on CPAP or APAP, and 2) your AHI and likely pressure needs seem to fluctuate from night to night.

Machine-wise the above puts you in the realm of: 1) probably needing a BiLevel machine, and 2) probably needing an automatically adjusting BiLevel machine. If I were to try a new BiLevel auto machine I would be sure to get the Respironics BiPAP Auto with BiFlex, to continue monitoring that Variable Breathing statistic hoping for improvement.

With that said, I personally think you're much better off finding an excellent sleep doctor who can make sure you aren't starting to experience a brand new health problem---such as congestive heart failure (transitional cases can supposedly be surprisingly episodic or intermittent). I'm not sure exactly what your very high variable breathing rates may reflect---only that it's probably not good. We have seen plenty of people come to this message board with fluctuating residual AHI scores like yours. But I don't remember anybody else besides dllfo ever presenting such high-and-erratic VB data coupled with occasionally high-and-erratic residual AHI as you present.

So I would suggest finding a good doc or medical team, and making them scrutinize what's going on with your health using a fine tooth comb. If you error on the side of caution you will have wasted both money and time. If you error on the side of recklessness, you can conceivably waste exactly one human life. Good luck however you decide to proceed.

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MrSandman
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by MrSandman » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:40 pm

Thanks -SWS for your concern. It isn't like my family doc would know what the heck I were talking about if I went in complaining of a high % of VB. I forgot to reinstall my card last night so nothing to post. I had a physical a couple months ago and an ee or ecg where they put stickies on your ankles and chest and a machine prints something out-lasts about 30 seconds. No issues noted except high cholesterol,triglycerides.

I will be calling my original sleep doc Monday. I don't think she sees patients anymore so I will probably see a partner of hers that is a Pulmonoligist. Is that a good Dr. to talk to about this?

Thanks
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:43 pm

Browser wrote:Thanks -SWS for your concern. It isn't like my family doc would know what the heck I were talking about if I went in complaining of a high % of VB. I forgot to reinstall my card last night so nothing to post. I had a physical a couple months ago and an ee or ecg where they put stickies on your ankles and chest and a machine prints something out-lasts about 30 seconds. No issues noted except high cholesterol,triglycerides.

I will be calling my original sleep doc Monday. I don't think she sees patients anymore so I will probably see a partner of hers that is a Pulmonoligist. Is that a good Dr. to talk to about this?

Thanks
Browser, I fully agree that most doctors would not know what to make of that proprietary Respironics VB statistic. They'd probably dismiss that proprietary statistic for very understandable reasons: VB is not a clinical event, clinical measurement, or clinical statistic of any kind. And it's an incredibly ambiguous statistic even to those few people who are somewhat familiar with it. Regardless, in such a rare case when VB consistently runs so high, I fear something in physiology may not be just right. Suboptimal PAP therapy may be at the heart of your incredibly high VB rates. If so, the auto BiPAP with BiFlex may help not only with VB and AHI, but perhaps even better sleep architecture. While we see a lot of suboptimal PAP therapy on this board, we honestly don't often have the opportunity to glimpse what VB scores are being presented in those cases. But when we have glimpsed VB in cases of suboptimal PAP, the VB scores have never consistently run as high as yours.

My concern or preference that you find a sharp doctor is based not only in those extremely unusual VB scores of yours, but also that you have other medicines and treatments in the equation. For instance, we really don't know if OCD might somehow subtly influence the cardiopulmonary characteristics of breathing variation during sleep---which VB is attempting to score. I am very glad that you passed your recent cardiac screening. I also recall dllfo having passed very many cardiac diagnostic tests before finally having a slight hole in his heart properly diagnosed (discovered at a renowned hospital far away from his home). Also, bear in mind that my mother passed all her cardiac imaging and diagnostic tests---only a few short weeks before we rushed her to the emergency room for cardiac surgery. She had been intermittently suffering chronic fatigue and other cardiac symptoms for over a year. Unfortunately when she received her "thorough" cardiac diagnostic suite of tests, she wasn't presenting any cardiac symptoms that day---other than a couple not-quite marginal scores the doctor didn't think was all that unusual. So the diagnostics literally couldn't spot the fact that she was a "transitional" and thus intermittent cardiac case, requiring a pacemaker. She thus traded outpatient cataract surgery that day for emergency pacemaker surgery.

IMO, because you are taking SSRI meds for OCD, you could arguably fare better with a sleep doctor specializing in neurology or a sleep doctor specializing in pulmonology. Either discipline might turn out to be more relevant to what is happening with your VB. Alternately a more suitable auto BiPAP modality might turn out to be more relevant and mitigating regarding those high VB scores. I honestly don't have a great guess to offer---just concern. However, I might favor trying to find a sleep doctor who has an excellent reputation as being a great diagnostician----more so than favoring some lackluster sleep doctor because he/she happens to have a specialty in either pulmnology or neurology. Good luck, sir!
Last edited by -SWS on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by MrSandman » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:01 pm

I will look into it. When you see a Dr. and they see you are taking AD meds it seems to me they often dismiss a lot of your concerns. Sad but true because it has bugged me for years. They tend to form an opinion or something and then everything is either anxiety or depression or mental health related.

I am having an issue while awake related to the heart or breathing that I haven't described here because I am not sure how to describe it. It has been happening a lot today. I at one time thought I had undiagnosed asthma. I was told recently it was probably PVC's even though they didn't see any on the EEG or ECG. I remember feeling it growing up a couple times a year but I feel it more in the last year,sometimes a lot more.

It feels like a flutter in the middle of my chest between my nipple area. It is like I am just breathing like normal and then I feel like I inhaled but I got no air and I am aware of a harder heart beat or something harder than normal and it is fine. I happens so fast that before I can get too upset it is gone. Sometimes it happens several times in a row like today. I usually begin to feel anxious after it happens and when it happens. I was told this is how a PVC feels and is probably just from caffeine and is harmless. Mind you they never see anything on an EEG or ECG or whatever I described above is.

It has been a couple weeks prior to today since I felt this issue.
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:10 pm

Browser wrote:I will look into it. When you see a Dr. and they see you are taking AD meds it seems to me they often dismiss a lot of your concerns. Sad but true because it has bugged me for years. They tend to form an opinion or something and then everything is either anxiety or depression or mental health related.
I think this is a repeated complaint of patients in general. I honestly think efficiently troubleshooting complex or combinatorial health problems is an incredibly tough feat for the human mind---even that of doctors. Our frustration with the doctors is understandable. In reality the heart of that frustration is seated in the fact that very few doctors have the 220 IQ necessary to diagnose as efficiently as we would like.

IMHO it helps when we put our heads together on message boards like this for a couple reasons: 1) collectively we have vastly more time to analyze our difficult health problems than any doctor can possibly spend, and 2) the social problem-solving theory known as "Wisdom of Crowds" comes into play, as a vast mix of skills and opinions factor into our group discussions about health and sleep-related problems.

Again, good luck!

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by Snoredog » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:26 pm

AD meds? Well that would be expected from severe fatigue.
Last edited by Snoredog on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by MrSandman » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:46 pm

I really like the way you lay your thoughts out there Snoredog. If I could post the data I lost when my drive crashed you would see that I had an AHI under 3 or under 5 for sure with a pressure range of 12-16 but yes my VB was 50-60% then also. It seems I am having more issues the past several months.

Less than 2 years ago all but 1 Ha was gotten rid of at a pressure of 10 but it was raised to 15 to eliminate residual snoring. That was only for a treatment sleep time of 1.8 hours.

Something has changed once again recently to make my treatment needs be all over the place in order to control AHI and my snoring has gotten much worse and harder to control.

So maybe your original suggestion to set at 16 was a good one... I don't know. I will try it tonight and leave it alone for a week.

I hate the higher pressure because it is louder and harder to control leaks but I do find when I wake I can't even tell if the machine is on unless I have a leak.

Do you agree with -SWS concerning a possible unknown health issue?
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by MrSandman » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:49 pm

Snoredog wrote:Don't bother trying 9.0 cm it won't show anything different than what is seen at 11. The only way you can expect to see a change is with Bipap Auto.

That difference will come from Pressure Support offered by the delta between IPAP and EPAP. If you hold up your left hand and using your index finger and thumb make a "C" about 3". As you are looking at that, the index finger is the highest point of Inspiration or inhale, the thumb is the lowest point of Exhalation or exhale. The index finger is IPAP, the thumb is EPAP. Right now you are only getting pressure from the thumb with this machine. With the Bipap you will have a "band" of pressure in the center that will always be maintained. This means with the bipap it will not just take the EPAP/CPAP pressure and fill that volume, it will pad that volume with higher pressure as you inhale but release it on exhale maintaining that band of pressure always in the center.

IF you think of the exact point where you switch from exhale to inhale, if you didn't have CPAP pressure, that transition point could be zero, that is where the airway could easily collapse (with a snore, hypopnea or apnea). If I give you a set pressure say 15 and you then inhale and dramatically increase the volume that 15 cm pressure is momentarily going to drop, it will try to fill that extra volume and if you observe the LCD display as pressure is being delivered you will see the pressure drop on the display. Bipap removes that momentary drop.

My suggestions remains for the Bipap Auto. While your current machine could eliminate most of the events seen with a very high fixed pressure there are drawbacks to that, such as aerophagia etc., noise, discomfort in tolerating that single pressure etc. There is the big guy Patrick who used to frequent here, he used CPAP at 18 cm and higher. He finally switched to Bipap and it was night and day difference for him.

So if you want to waste money on anything I'd waste it on a Bipap Auto, they are easy to set up. You don't have Central Apnea, so you don't need a S/T or a SV type of machine, your disorder is all obstructive, you just need a machine that is adequate to treat your disorder.

The maximum pressure on your current machine is 20 cm. The Bipap Auto is 25 cm, that means it has a much more robust motor which can deliver the pressure needed when its needed. Push your current machine to its limits and it won't have the umph when it is needed, if there is resistance in the way from the nose that job is just that much harder.

If I were to set you up on a Bipap, I would start at:

Mode=Bflex Auto
EPAP Min=14
IPAP Max=25
PS=6
Flex=3 (just a comfort setting, you might want it at maximum of 3)


When you turned it on,

EPAP goes to 14 cm
IPAP lands 2 cm higher than EPAP at 16 cm.

Depending on what type of event seen,

EPAP would increase if apnea or VS was seen, pushing IPAP up from 16 cm.
IPAP would increase if Hypopnea or VS, or FL were seen, if separation got greater than 6 cm from IPAP to EPAP, it would pull
up EPAP lessening the need for more IPAP support.

You should see a dramatic difference just by the Pressure Support offered between IPAP and EPAP.
But what happened with this suggestion Snoredog? Are you updating your suggestion or ?.

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by Snoredog » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:41 pm

Wulfman wrote:I'd hate to have to read all nine pages of this thread to ask this question, if it's already been answered.......but......do you sleep on your back?


Den
Last edited by Snoredog on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:38 pm

Snoredog wrote:I think where -SWS may be coming from is high xpap pressure can put extra pressure on your heart, and I mean physical pressure.
I didn't have that in mind as it turns out. However, I think what you mention above can be a valid consideration. The other relevant point you made earlier was that Browser would be trading APAP with C-Flex for auto BiPAP with BiFlex. So I agree a "Flex-for-Flex" trade can be pretty much an even trade regarding exhalation or comfort relief.

Here are the two areas that may bring Browser extra pressure relief using the auto BiPAP w/ BiFlex compared to the APAP w/Cflex:

1) A significant PS gap itself can reduce the work of breathing (WOB) in certain cases such as extra weight over the abdomen, chest, and/or diaphragm (especially) ---that's pressure relief regarding some work that doesn't have to be performed by the diaphragm and upper-accessory muscles in the chest.

2) Auto BiPAP will move EPAP up and down to address S and A only---it can stay lower than CPAP/APAP levels since BiLevel's IPAP will be addressing H and FL (FL via Popt search).

To expand the comparison in point 2 a bit: in the presence of A, H, FL, or S, APAP will necessarily spend both inhalation and exhalation high enough to address any combination of those four event types. By contrast, auto BiPAP's exhalation pressure can be dropped for extended periods in the midst of addressing exclusively H, exclusively FL, or intermixed H + FL. That can buy some people significant amounts of time at lower exhalation pressures compared to ordinary APAP or CPAP.

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:50 pm

Image

Well, well, well. Good thing I didn't e-mail you "The Big Secret".

SAG

**From Let Me Go Ahead And Delete My 369 Posts
Image

Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by -SWS » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:49 pm

SAG wrote:Well, well, well. Good thing I didn't e-mail you "The Big Secret".

SAG


I already knew about that much earlier thanks to Jules. The subterfuge clearly brings into question the authenticity of the high VB numbers. I still take those high VB numbers and other health clues very seriously because they just may be real---despite an ongoing issue with misrepresentation and general credibility. I recall mth712/blowfish had some genuinely perplexing and unresolved aspects of his therapy. And I think that was the basis of his frustrations here in the past.

This is potentially an important health-related thread for Browser, assuming the information and data given thus far has been authentic. I consider this thread a second chance for everyone involved.

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Re: Variable Breathing always 60%+ - Concerned

Post by Snoredog » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:16 pm

Me thinks he has the hose stuck in the wrong orifice
Last edited by Snoredog on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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