plastics in humidifier and tubing

[jdennie]

Dear feeling_better,

Concerning validity of urine test: You are correct about the exposure of the U.S. population. If I'm not mistaken, 95+% of the U.S. is exposed to BPA on a daily basis. That population has a specific range of BPA content in morning urine. My hyposthesis is if I am being hyper exposed to BPA, my urine sample will show BPA content above the range found within the non-CPAP using population. If it's in the normal range of the general U.S. population then my worries are unfounded.

Also, I sent an email to Respironics yesterday. They called me last night on the phone. When I asked specifically if Respironics CPAPs contain BPA the Respirconics representative either couldn't or wouldn't answer my question. He told me he would have to check on something and that he would call me this morning. I haven't heard from him yet.

Until this week, BPA exposure was only thought to be harmful to infants and children. Because of that, Respironics took the position that no one should be concerned about BPA content in their products because CPAPs are not recommended for children. I am now of the opinion that someone needs to be concerned enough to at least begin observing BPA levels in CPAP users and any correlation to disease in order to reassert the safety of these products.

Does that sound reasonable or do you think I'm overreacting?

[feeling_better]

Dear feeling_better,

Concerning validity of urine test: You are correct about the exposure of the U.S. population. If I'm not mistaken, 95+% of the U.S. is exposed to BPA on a daily basis. That population has a specific range of BPA content in morning urine. My hyposthesis is if I am being hyper exposed to BPA, my urine sample will show BPA content above the range found within the non-CPAP using population. If it's in the normal range of the general U.S. population then my worries are unfounded.

I would think similarly. Let us know about your test results. How easy/difficult is the test to get done, how much does it cost?

What cpap machine model are you using?

Also, I sent an email to Respironics yesterday. They called me last night on the phone. When I asked specifically if Respironics CPAPs contain BPA the Respirconics representative either couldn't or wouldn't answer my question. He told me he would have to check on something and that he would call me this morning. I haven't heard from him yet.

Somebody else had asked Respironics about this earlier (it may be posted in this thread), and their answer at that time was similar. So I would conclude that it does contain bpa, otherwise they would have gone out of their way to say it did not In fact there was a post in this forum to the effect that another manufacturer had released a statement that their machine does not have plastic with bpa. If there is some consumer concerns (this forum has some force, the manufacturers constantly monitor this forum, and some of the posts I would assume are from manufacturers' shills here) and people choose the latter product more, market forces will get this material out of the cap products, independent of any real risk. The threat of possible liability law suits will make sensible companies move even faster! I would not be suprised if they even offered free replacements I might simply switch over to a non bpa container hh product ...

If anybody here knows companies announcements regarding 'no bpa in our xyz cpap related prodcut', kindly post here.

Until this week, BPA exposure was only thought to be harmful to infants and children. Because of that, Respironics took the position that no one should be concerned about BPA content in their products because CPAPs are not recommended for children. I am now of the opinion that someone needs to be concerned enough to at least begin observing BPA levels in CPAP users and any correlation to disease in order to reassert the safety of these products.

Does that sound reasonable or do you think I'm overreacting?

I do not think you are overreacting at all. You are sensibly pursing the issue. Even though I am new here, after seeing how nervous and overanxious some people in this forum can get by the slightest tinge of a rumor, I felt responsible to not sound any big alarm bell ...

[jdennie]

Hey Wulfman,

Perhaps you should read the posts more carefully. The studies I cited came out this week including one that came out 2 days ago. . . not five years ago. Moreover, "where the BPA came from in these folks" has no relevance. The JAMA study concluded that normal exposure through water bottles, food cans, etc. has correlation to heart disease, type II diabetes and metabolic syndrome in adults. It stands to reason Wulfman that if you and I have greater exposure to BPA than the rest of the population we may have a greater degree of risk. We should try to find out.

JD

[jdennie]

Dear feeling_better,

I had the Rem Star Plus for some 2 1/2 years. Now I have the M Series Auto CPAP. Both are manufactured by
Respironics. I'll keep you posted on the urine tests, etc.

JD

[Wulfman]

Hey Wulfman,

Perhaps you should read the posts more carefully. The studies I cited came out this week including one that came out 2 days ago. . . not five years ago. Moreover, "where the BPA came from in these folks" has no relevance. The JAMA study concluded that normal exposure through water bottles, food cans, etc. has correlation to heart disease, type II diabetes and metabolic syndrome in adults. It stands to reason Wulfman that if you and I have greater exposure to BPA than the rest of the population we may have a greater degree of risk. We should try to find out.

JD

This study used data from the National Health and Nutrition Survey of 2003-2004.

I did read it......the data is (according to your post) about five years old.

If this one is like some other studies I've read ("APAP vs. CPAP" comes to mind), the people doing the studies can skew the data to make it come out to their pre-conceived notions.

This subject has been coming up periodically on the forum for quite some time. I'm STILL not concerned.


Den

[feeling_better]

jdennie, You do not show a PM for me to send you msg. Could you please send me a msg on my PM? I would like to discuss a couple of items over PM.

[jdennie]

You can send me a PM now.

jdennie, You do not show a PM for me to send you msg. Could you please send me a msg on my PM? I would like to discuss a couple of items over PM.

[marshaeb]

A couple of weeks ago, DreamStalker posted this observation in another thread:

... e-coli or other bacteria, viruses, or microorganisms are way to big to take a ride on an H2O molecule. It would be like an elephant trying to hitch a ride on the back of a flea ... it will just never happen.

My brain was never hardwired for scientific pursuits, so although I probably should know this, I don't: does the same principle that DreamStalker mentioned also apply to whatever BPA would leach into the water? In other words, is this actually a moot point, since it wouldn't be possible for the BPA to be carried out of the humidifier, through the hose and mask and into our lungs?

Marsha

[jdennie]

A couple of weeks ago, DreamStalker posted this observation in another thread:

... e-coli or other bacteria, viruses, or microorganisms are way to big to take a ride on an H2O molecule. It would be like an elephant trying to hitch a ride on the back of a flea ... it will just never happen.

My brain was never hardwired for scientific pursuits, so although I probably should know this, I don't: does the same principle that DreamStalker mentioned also apply to whatever BPA would leach into the water? In other words, is this actually a moot point, since it wouldn't be possible for the BPA to be carried out of the humidifier, through the hose and mask and into our lungs?

Marsha

First of all, bacteria and viruses don't have to attach themselves to a water molecule in order to be transmitted via the air. Most pathogens are transmitted this way. The studies I have been reading seem to suggest the same thing happens with BPA. Here's the quote below.

. . .exposure to BPA occurs most often through diet, but also through "transdermal exposure and inhalation of airborne dust."

Moreover, if our masks contain BPA we would also be recipients through transdermal (skin) exposure. It would appear to me that CPAP users have very intense exposure to BPA. Keep in mind. I am not certain about our level of exposure. I'm trying to find that out. Don't stop using your CPAP until you hear from Respironics or other experts.

[DreamStalker]

A couple of weeks ago, DreamStalker posted this observation in another thread:

... e-coli or other bacteria, viruses, or microorganisms are way to big to take a ride on an H2O molecule. It would be like an elephant trying to hitch a ride on the back of a flea ... it will just never happen.

My brain was never hardwired for scientific pursuits, so although I probably should know this, I don't: does the same principle that DreamStalker mentioned also apply to whatever BPA would leach into the water? In other words, is this actually a moot point, since it wouldn't be possible for the BPA to be carried out of the humidifier, through the hose and mask and into our lungs?

Marsha

First of all, bacteria and viruses don't have to attach themselves to a water molecule in order to be transmitted via the air. Most pathogens are transmitted this way. The studies I have been reading seem to suggest the same thing happens with BPA. Here's the quote below.

. . .exposure to BPA occurs most often through diet, but also through "transdermal exposure and inhalation of airborne dust."

Moreover, if our masks contain BPA we would also be recipients through transdermal (skin) exposure. It would appear to me that CPAP users have very intense exposure to BPA. Keep in mind. I am not certain about our level of exposure. I'm trying to find that out. Don't stop using your CPAP until you hear from Respironics or other experts.

First of all, I think when I made that post it was in reference to frequency of cleaning humidifier reservoirs to prevent hypothetical respiratory infections. Furthermore, the point I think I was trying to make was that if the bugs are in your humidifier water they will stay in the water just because of the physics involved. Second, if such bugs do get into your humidifier, they will likely get in there due to using non-distilled water … which is one more reason to always use distilled water (though not the primary reason -- primary reason is to mitigate mineral precipitation onto HH reservoir heating plate). The only other way for bugs to get into the PAP system is by air but if you are using the recommended HEPA filter, that too is an unlikely path for contamination since HEPA traps about 95% of particles less than 0.3 microns. And finally, if bugs got into your system via the 5% or by some other means, chances are that it is in the air you breathe when not using your PAP system (ie. 100% chance of inhaling the bugs right out of your bedroom air) and you would actually be safer using the PAP system.

RE: BPA … I think the risk is currently overblown. Generally the greater risk is for using it as food/drink containers rather than respiratory equipment. And even then, the risk is only likely to be an issue for food/drink containers that are used for heating in microwaves. So don't use plastics to microwave foods or drinks ... use glass/ceramic containers only.

Bottom line … not using your PAP system is significantly a much greater risk to health than perceived respiratory infection by microorganisms or the toxicity of breathing outgassed BPA.

[marshaeb]

Thanks!!

Marsha

[jdennie]

A couple of weeks ago, DreamStalker posted this observation in another thread:

... e-coli or other bacteria, viruses, or microorganisms are way to big to take a ride on an H2O molecule. It would be like an elephant trying to hitch a ride on the back of a flea ... it will just never happen.

My brain was never hardwired for scientific pursuits, so although I probably should know this, I don't: does the same principle that DreamStalker mentioned also apply to whatever BPA would leach into the water? In other words, is this actually a moot point, since it wouldn't be possible for the BPA to be carried out of the humidifier, through the hose and mask and into our lungs?

Marsha

First of all, bacteria and viruses don't have to attach themselves to a water molecule in order to be transmitted via the air. Most pathogens are transmitted this way. The studies I have been reading seem to suggest the same thing happens with BPA. Here's the quote below.

. . .exposure to BPA occurs most often through diet, but also through "transdermal exposure and inhalation of airborne dust."

Moreover, if our masks contain BPA we would also be recipients through transdermal (skin) exposure. It would appear to me that CPAP users have very intense exposure to BPA. Keep in mind. I am not certain about our level of exposure. I'm trying to find that out. Don't stop using your CPAP until you hear from Respironics or other experts.

First of all, I think when I made that post it was in reference to frequency of cleaning humidifier reservoirs to prevent hypothetical respiratory infections. Furthermore, the point I think I was trying to make was that if the bugs are in your humidifier water they will stay in the water just because of the physics involved. Second, if such bugs do get into your humidifier, they will likely get in there due to using non-distilled water … which is one more reason to always use distilled water (though not the primary reason -- primary reason is to mitigate mineral precipitation onto HH reservoir heating plate). The only other way for bugs to get into the PAP system is by air but if you are using the recommended HEPA filter, that too is an unlikely path for contamination since HEPA traps about 95% of particles less than 0.3 microns. And finally, if bugs got into your system via the 5% or by some other means, chances are that it is in the air you breathe when not using your PAP system (ie. 100% chance of inhaling the bugs right out of your bedroom air) and you would actually be safer using the PAP system.

RE: BPA … I think the risk is currently overblown. Generally the greater risk is for using it as food/drink containers rather than respiratory equipment. And even then, the risk is only likely to be an issue for food/drink containers that are used for heating in microwaves. So don't use plastics to microwave foods or drinks ... use glass/ceramic containers only.

Bottom line … not using your PAP system is significantly a much greater risk to health than perceived respiratory infection by microorganisms or the toxicity of breathing outgassed BPA.

Apparently you haven't read this week's Journal of American Medical Association article that suggests otherwise. Do yourself a favor and read it. Don't stop using your CPAP, but do take steps to protect yourself with real knowledge about the subject.

[jdennie]

Wake up people! This is not an article written by a bunch of tree huggers using bad science. It's an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the premier, peer reviewed, academic journal of the U.S. medical community.

From the study published September 16, 2008
"Adults with the highest BPA levels in their urine were more than twice as likely to have heart disease or diabetes than those with the lowest levels."

Now who do you think has a higher level of BPA, CPAP users who inhale water from a heated plastic reservoir all night long for 365 days a year, or some one who occasionally drinks out of a plastic bottle?

This is my last public post about this. If you are concerned and would like to continue the dialogue contact me through private messages. I can't suffer the ignorance any longer.

Journal Citation
Association of Urinary Bisphenol A Concentration With Medical Disorders and Laboratory Abnormalities in Adults
Iain A. Lang, PhD; Tamara S. Galloway, PhD; Alan Scarlett, PhD; William E. Henley, PhD; Michael Depledge, PhD, DSc; Robert B. Wallace, MD; David Melzer, MB, PhD
JAMA. 2008;300(11):1303-1310. Published online September 16, 2008 (doi:10.1001/jama.300.11.1303).

[Wulfman]

http://www.bisphenol-a.org/human/polyplastics.html

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/edi ... 0269.story

"Bisphenol A, also known as BPA, has been around for 50 years. It's used in polycarbonate plastic baby bottles, water-cooler containers, eyeglasses, bullet-resistant glass, bicycle helmets, reusable water bottles, dental sealants for children, microwave oven dishes and the epoxy resins that line cans of food. Traces of the chemical can be found in the bodies of most people around the world."


.
Den

[feeling_better]

Now who do you think has a higher level of BPA, CPAP users who inhale water from a heated plastic reservoir all night long for 365 days a year, or some one who occasionally drinks out of a plastic bottle?

jdennie, First, I hope you do stay around, and the above was not your last public post. However, I do understand how somebody like you new to the forum could feel, when many people shoot down your concerns. I would think part of that is because every so often somebody cries wolf and the regulars have not taken you in seriously yet:) The usual group dynamics. I am very new here, and I may not have any right to make the above statement

If anybody is interested in knowing if the HH of M-series auto does indeed have bpa in it [one of the subjects of this thread] , here may be a method:
From the public post at cpap.com
https://www.cpap.com/DisplayArticle/5

... If you have any further question regarding this topic, please feel free to contact me at zita.yurko@respironics.com or at 724-387-4120.

Regards,

Zita Yurko
Director, Regulatory Affairs
Sleep and Home Respiratory Division
Respironics, Inc.

Make a request to this official of the company asking 'if BPA is present in the particular product (of your interest), so that you can take your own measures to reduce whatever risk you might perceive'. Make it clear you are not asking for their position if bpa is safe or if Respironics products are safe, but the fact whether or nor bpa is present in the product. See how fast they would reply and what the reply is. I would expect a public company would be very concerned about their liability if they do not provide this information to the people who use its product.