It would be great for mask buyers if masks could be returned if they did not work well. Perhaps some reasonable solutions will surface that will allow mask returns. The buyer wants to KNOW that that their mask is the very best size and type for their face on the planet. And if they manage to try enough masks to be reasonably certain that they have found it, every time a new mask comes out, they feel the need to try it to see if perhaps it is better. This is very reasonable consumer behavior
Consider the seller of these masks, particularly the internet cpap seller. Sellers want to sell lots of masks at a profit. Sellers also have an interest in developing loyal customers. Unfortunately, they create big problems for their business if the accept mask returns.
Sellers cannot currently accept masks back for these reasons:
1. Customers want brand new masks in sealed original bags. Sellers do not think customers will accept a mask that has been on a face. What then can a seller do to recoup his investment in the returned non defective mask?
2. Sellers have very small profit margins. Prices on the internet are under intense pressure and have moved about as low as they can go. Buyers tend to shop for lowest price. Frequent returns of non defective products would kill profits. Consider this, if a seller has a 10% margin and gets a mask back, he has to sell nearly 9 more just to break even. Returns would likely be much higher than ten percent of mask sales.
3. Sellers have other costs relating to returns. All of the costs of the original selling, including advertising pay per click fees, credit card processing fees, picking, and boxing have no support for a return item. Even if a manufacturer agrees to accept non defective used products returns, the overall burden on the seller for each return is very significant.
4. If buyers agree to accept previously breathed in masks, the masks and headgear would need to be sorted for quality, cleaned and disinfected. It is not clear how the seller will be paid for these activities.
The idea that the internet sellers are going to just begin to accept the return of used non defective masks is naive. It can happen only if:
1. Returns are modest (not likely). Expectations of 30% returns on new models are well beyond the ability of sellers to survive.
2. Margins go up enough to justify the cost and loss of profit in exchange for customer loyalty.
3. The manufacturers step in and provide significant assistance to the sellers. Just accepting the masks back does not do enough to cover the costs of the seller for returns.
Bottom line is unless mask margins increase, it is not likely that we will see free mask returns for non defective masks anytime soon.
The Mask Return Dilemma. Some thoughts.
Re: The Mask Return Dilemma. Some thoughts.
[quote="Maskedmechanic"]It would be great for mask buyers if masks could be returned if they did not work well. Perhaps some reasonable solutions will surface that will allow mask returns. The buyer wants to KNOW that that their mask is the very best size and type for their face on the planet. And if they manage to try enough masks to be reasonably certain that they have found it, every time a new mask comes out, they feel the need to try it to see if perhaps it is better. This is very reasonable consumer behavior
Consider the seller of these masks, particularly the internet cpap seller. Sellers want to sell lots of masks at a profit. Sellers also have an interest in developing loyal customers. Unfortunately, they create big problems for their business if the accept mask returns.
Sellers cannot currently accept masks back for these reasons:
1. Customers want brand new masks in sealed original bags. Sellers do not think customers will accept a mask that has been on a face. What then can a seller do to recoup his investment in the returned non defective mask?
2. Sellers have very small profit margins. Prices on the internet are under intense pressure and have moved about as low as they can go. Buyers tend to shop for lowest price. Frequent returns of non defective products would kill profits. Consider this, if a seller has a 10% margin and gets a mask back, he has to sell nearly 9 more just to break even. Returns would likely be much higher than ten percent of mask sales.
3. Sellers have other costs relating to returns. All of the costs of the original selling, including advertising pay per click fees, credit card processing fees, picking, and boxing have no support for a return item. Even if a manufacturer agrees to accept non defective used products returns, the overall burden on the seller for each return is very significant.
4. If buyers agree to accept previously breathed in masks, the masks and headgear would need to be sorted for quality, cleaned and disinfected. It is not clear how the seller will be paid for these activities.
The idea that the internet sellers are going to just begin to accept the return of used non defective masks is naive. It can happen only if:
1. Returns are modest (not likely). Expectations of 30% returns on new models are well beyond the ability of sellers to survive.
2. Margins go up enough to justify the cost and loss of profit in exchange for customer loyalty.
3. The manufacturers step in and provide significant assistance to the sellers. Just accepting the masks back does not do enough to cover the costs of the seller for returns.
Bottom line is unless mask margins increase, it is not likely that we will see free mask returns for non defective masks anytime soon.
Consider the seller of these masks, particularly the internet cpap seller. Sellers want to sell lots of masks at a profit. Sellers also have an interest in developing loyal customers. Unfortunately, they create big problems for their business if the accept mask returns.
Sellers cannot currently accept masks back for these reasons:
1. Customers want brand new masks in sealed original bags. Sellers do not think customers will accept a mask that has been on a face. What then can a seller do to recoup his investment in the returned non defective mask?
2. Sellers have very small profit margins. Prices on the internet are under intense pressure and have moved about as low as they can go. Buyers tend to shop for lowest price. Frequent returns of non defective products would kill profits. Consider this, if a seller has a 10% margin and gets a mask back, he has to sell nearly 9 more just to break even. Returns would likely be much higher than ten percent of mask sales.
3. Sellers have other costs relating to returns. All of the costs of the original selling, including advertising pay per click fees, credit card processing fees, picking, and boxing have no support for a return item. Even if a manufacturer agrees to accept non defective used products returns, the overall burden on the seller for each return is very significant.
4. If buyers agree to accept previously breathed in masks, the masks and headgear would need to be sorted for quality, cleaned and disinfected. It is not clear how the seller will be paid for these activities.
The idea that the internet sellers are going to just begin to accept the return of used non defective masks is naive. It can happen only if:
1. Returns are modest (not likely). Expectations of 30% returns on new models are well beyond the ability of sellers to survive.
2. Margins go up enough to justify the cost and loss of profit in exchange for customer loyalty.
3. The manufacturers step in and provide significant assistance to the sellers. Just accepting the masks back does not do enough to cover the costs of the seller for returns.
Bottom line is unless mask margins increase, it is not likely that we will see free mask returns for non defective masks anytime soon.
_________________
| Mask | ||||
 | ||||
| Additional Comments: I also have a Swift Nasal Mask! | ||||
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ahujudybear
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 10:12 am
- Location: Franklin, WI
Well, to begin with, I don't think anyone other than grocery store owners or honest small shopkeepers get as low as a 10% markup. for example, Ayr-gel. I bought a tube at Target and discovered by accident that the store was charged 85 cents for each tube. The printed price on the box was $3.38. I used to work in retail and we maintained a mark-up of about 6% to 15% and were able to undersell "discpount" stores by about 50% (We'd get a Nikon slr body for $75 and sell it for maybe $100 or $125, While other places were selling the same thing for $225 or more.
At any rate, I wasn't even thinking about internet sales when I mentioned returning a mask that didn't work (or being allowed to try masks and exchange them if they weren't satisfactory.) I was thinking more of the local DME's --- Hehehe---like mine! Or other places that specialize in this sort of stuff (are they all called DME's??) like medical supply places.
It might even be more economic to do this. They could have one or two samples of the more popular masks on hand, then order more or something different as the need arises. If something is returned, it becomes a "sample" for people to try or to rent. I canot begin to imagine how much inventory those on-line companies must have to be able to meet demand , or how much wasted inventory they must dispose of if something doesn't work.
- Just some thoughts....
- JB
At any rate, I wasn't even thinking about internet sales when I mentioned returning a mask that didn't work (or being allowed to try masks and exchange them if they weren't satisfactory.) I was thinking more of the local DME's --- Hehehe---like mine! Or other places that specialize in this sort of stuff (are they all called DME's??) like medical supply places.
It might even be more economic to do this. They could have one or two samples of the more popular masks on hand, then order more or something different as the need arises. If something is returned, it becomes a "sample" for people to try or to rent. I canot begin to imagine how much inventory those on-line companies must have to be able to meet demand , or how much wasted inventory they must dispose of if something doesn't work.
- Just some thoughts....
- JB
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rock and roll
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas
Average markup at grocery store chain is 35 % and they do large volumn.
Average markup on clothes is 200 percent.
Furniture is 50 %.
Cars are 35 %.
No way that any internet seller is doing 10%
DME'S ARE MAKING AT LEAST 200 %
I think that the internet sellers are operating on about 60%
Why do I suspect this?
One of the suppliers that sells to internet stores sent me a catalog and cost sheet when I inquired about starting up my own site.
They can and should have an exchange policy just like all other consumer products.IMHO of course.
Average markup on clothes is 200 percent.
Furniture is 50 %.
Cars are 35 %.
No way that any internet seller is doing 10%
DME'S ARE MAKING AT LEAST 200 %
I think that the internet sellers are operating on about 60%
Why do I suspect this?
One of the suppliers that sells to internet stores sent me a catalog and cost sheet when I inquired about starting up my own site.
They can and should have an exchange policy just like all other consumer products.IMHO of course.
-
Maskedmechanic
-
rested gal
- Posts: 12881
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Johnny? I swear I think you're the mechanic behind that mask...
You're good at thinking outside the box. Heck, you're great at it. You and your father have built not only cpap.com but other very successful businesses.
I don't think the higher price would have to be nine times higher. But hey, I haven't seen the price lists you see.
Set the higher price as high as you want. It will make the lower price non-returnable ones look like even more of a great deal. You won't even have any extra inventory - the mask in the warehouse is a mask, whether it goes out sold non-returnable as usual, or magically turns into high-priced "try it and get credit on your account if you don't like it."
Surely the returned masks could be written off as losses, or as some kind of charitable donation ...somewhere.
Or get your legal team to work up a "your own risk" form for used mask sales - a three pronged approach to your mask sales. I think you might be surprised at the number of people who would be willing to buy (or rent... shoot, go for 4 pronged approach!) a mask that had previously been "breathed in".
cpap.com could blaze a new, maybe even more profitable, path. Breaking out of the "too bad, you're stuck with it" old way of doing business when it comes to the #1 (imho) reason people drop out of treatment - an uncomfortable mask. Catch those potential dropouts and make them your customers for years to come.
Talk about customer loyalty and word of mouth advertising. WOW! "Hey, there's an online store that makes it possible to try out any mask!" For a hefty price, but hey, if they want that return-for-credit thingy... Yet at the same time not lose customers who already know what mask and what size they want, or who want to continue paying a lower price with the usual "no return" chance that it won't suit them.
By providing the message board, you're already doing a good thing - a great thing - for people desperately trying to make a tough treatment work for them. It's also a good thing for business. I do admire you for keeping your finger on the pulse and actually taking part on the board, mask or no mask.
Perhaps you can come up with a way for everyone to have their mask and eat it too. I'd have said "cake", but gosh, that's messy to throw against a wall in the middle of the night.
You're good at thinking outside the box. Heck, you're great at it. You and your father have built not only cpap.com but other very successful businesses.
Maybe it doesn't have to be an either/or approach? How about offering brandnew masks two ways? Your usual low price - non-returnable. And a higher price (sky's the limit) for the same item to people (a few? many? who knows?) who are willing to pay a higher price for the privilege of returning it ...not for their money back, but as a credit to apply to anything else they want to buy from cpap.com. You'd at least have them locked into leaving that money with you.Bottom line is unless mask margins increase, it is not likely that we will see free mask returns for non defective masks anytime soon.
I don't think the higher price would have to be nine times higher. But hey, I haven't seen the price lists you see.
Set the higher price as high as you want. It will make the lower price non-returnable ones look like even more of a great deal. You won't even have any extra inventory - the mask in the warehouse is a mask, whether it goes out sold non-returnable as usual, or magically turns into high-priced "try it and get credit on your account if you don't like it."
Surely the returned masks could be written off as losses, or as some kind of charitable donation ...somewhere.
Or get your legal team to work up a "your own risk" form for used mask sales - a three pronged approach to your mask sales. I think you might be surprised at the number of people who would be willing to buy (or rent... shoot, go for 4 pronged approach!) a mask that had previously been "breathed in".
cpap.com could blaze a new, maybe even more profitable, path. Breaking out of the "too bad, you're stuck with it" old way of doing business when it comes to the #1 (imho) reason people drop out of treatment - an uncomfortable mask. Catch those potential dropouts and make them your customers for years to come.
Talk about customer loyalty and word of mouth advertising. WOW! "Hey, there's an online store that makes it possible to try out any mask!" For a hefty price, but hey, if they want that return-for-credit thingy... Yet at the same time not lose customers who already know what mask and what size they want, or who want to continue paying a lower price with the usual "no return" chance that it won't suit them.
By providing the message board, you're already doing a good thing - a great thing - for people desperately trying to make a tough treatment work for them. It's also a good thing for business. I do admire you for keeping your finger on the pulse and actually taking part on the board, mask or no mask.
Perhaps you can come up with a way for everyone to have their mask and eat it too. I'd have said "cake", but gosh, that's messy to throw against a wall in the middle of the night.
Given the choice between throwing a cake on the wall, and eating a mask, I personally would prefer the former. Of course, YMMV...
O.
_________________
| Mask: AirFit™ P10 Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear |
| Additional Comments: Machine: Resmed AirSense10 for Her with Climateline heated hose ; alternating masks. |
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye.
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Good advice is compromised by missing data
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Good advice is compromised by missing data
Forum member Dog Slobber Nov. 2023
-
johnnygoodman
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:13 pm
- Contact:
RG,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not the masked mechanic. Its cool that we have this masked avenger trolling cpaptalk though. Our own Zorro!
Indeed, we at cpap.com are focused on trying to find a smart way to handle returns. We know you want it and we know that its to us to figure out how to make it work. With that said, it looks bleak.
Our margins are very, very tight. Take a look at the cpap.com competition, it seems that every few months a few come and a few go. Many people get into this business without a full understanding of it and in the end they have a so so website and sales that can't keep up with costs. No one wants to buy either of those things, so their only exit strategy is to take a big loss.
RG, due to market conditions, we can't make money by raising prices. What we have done is built a custom ultra efficient order processing system. If we add return processing and staff people to handle it, we will be running an unprofitable business.
With that said, let me throw out a varient of your idea to keep the thread going, because with each one of these threads, we get closer to a solution:
1. Customers buys mask.
2. Customer is offered to option to purchase a "Mask Return Protection" policy. We adjust this policy to offset the costs of returns.
3. Customer purchases the Mask Return Protection.
4. Customer tries the Mask and does not like it.
5. Customer returns the mask and is gets cpap.com credit equal to the price paid for the mask.
6. Customer purchases another mask with it but does not purchase the "Mask Return Protection" policy.
7. Customer does not like the second mask they get and can not return it.
This would:
1. Give the "return power" to the customer.
2. Make it possible for us to offer such a service.
3. Be relatively simple for all involved.
Questions:
1. Who pays shipping for the return? Does the customer pay for shipping from cpap.com (once we received the mask) to the Manufacturer?
2. We don't want angry customers - we want customers gushing about how the world should buy from us. This most likely won't happen if someone passes on the "Mask Protection Plan" and gets a mask they don't like.
Please keep this thread going. Tell me what you think of this and send me more ideas!
Also, there's a chat tonight. I'll probably be asking about this in there.
Johnny
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not the masked mechanic. Its cool that we have this masked avenger trolling cpaptalk though. Our own Zorro!
Indeed, we at cpap.com are focused on trying to find a smart way to handle returns. We know you want it and we know that its to us to figure out how to make it work. With that said, it looks bleak.
Our margins are very, very tight. Take a look at the cpap.com competition, it seems that every few months a few come and a few go. Many people get into this business without a full understanding of it and in the end they have a so so website and sales that can't keep up with costs. No one wants to buy either of those things, so their only exit strategy is to take a big loss.
RG, due to market conditions, we can't make money by raising prices. What we have done is built a custom ultra efficient order processing system. If we add return processing and staff people to handle it, we will be running an unprofitable business.
With that said, let me throw out a varient of your idea to keep the thread going, because with each one of these threads, we get closer to a solution:
1. Customers buys mask.
2. Customer is offered to option to purchase a "Mask Return Protection" policy. We adjust this policy to offset the costs of returns.
3. Customer purchases the Mask Return Protection.
4. Customer tries the Mask and does not like it.
5. Customer returns the mask and is gets cpap.com credit equal to the price paid for the mask.
6. Customer purchases another mask with it but does not purchase the "Mask Return Protection" policy.
7. Customer does not like the second mask they get and can not return it.
This would:
1. Give the "return power" to the customer.
2. Make it possible for us to offer such a service.
3. Be relatively simple for all involved.
Questions:
1. Who pays shipping for the return? Does the customer pay for shipping from cpap.com (once we received the mask) to the Manufacturer?
2. We don't want angry customers - we want customers gushing about how the world should buy from us. This most likely won't happen if someone passes on the "Mask Protection Plan" and gets a mask they don't like.
Please keep this thread going. Tell me what you think of this and send me more ideas!
Also, there's a chat tonight. I'll probably be asking about this in there.
Johnny
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NeurosurgeryNP
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:58 pm
- Location: Long Island, NY
- Contact:
Johnny,
I think you have something going there - "Mask return Protection." As a newbie, I have searched for the right mask - tried Breeze, Activa, Swift, Comfort Curve and Aura. I have found that the Activa is my go to mask - however, spent $$$$ finding this out. Thanks to folks on the board, I got rid of 3 masks that weren't for me - but took a hit doing so - but at least they aren't in the closet, not helping anyone, and I got a little back for my investments.
Sounds like you have something going - please develop it - I would go for it!
I think you have something going there - "Mask return Protection." As a newbie, I have searched for the right mask - tried Breeze, Activa, Swift, Comfort Curve and Aura. I have found that the Activa is my go to mask - however, spent $$$$ finding this out. Thanks to folks on the board, I got rid of 3 masks that weren't for me - but took a hit doing so - but at least they aren't in the closet, not helping anyone, and I got a little back for my investments.
Sounds like you have something going - please develop it - I would go for it!
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. -Jimmy Buffett
-
MaskedMan
I don't think the "return protection" is a good route either. I wouldn't understand why I should have to pay a fee to find out that the product does not meet its claim.
For me its not whether I do or don't like a mask - its deeper than that - its the fact that the manufacturer or advertisement made a claim or statement and it is not true. I buy a mask for its actual performance, its not like a shirt that I decide I don't like, its that the mask is not meeting its claim.
The mask makers advertise "most comfortable fit ever", "leak free", etc and the bottom line is that these are not true (at least not for all) and if the product does not meet the advertise then I should be able to return it.
You can return underwear to a store - not sure I want to know what they do with it - but you can.
I don't expect the reseller of masks to take the hit either though. Its not that same in all industries, but manufacturers of devices often take the returns from the resellers of the products that do not meet customer expectation. So the consumer returns the product to the reseller and the reseller gets credit from their supplier, etc.
For me its not whether I do or don't like a mask - its deeper than that - its the fact that the manufacturer or advertisement made a claim or statement and it is not true. I buy a mask for its actual performance, its not like a shirt that I decide I don't like, its that the mask is not meeting its claim.
The mask makers advertise "most comfortable fit ever", "leak free", etc and the bottom line is that these are not true (at least not for all) and if the product does not meet the advertise then I should be able to return it.
You can return underwear to a store - not sure I want to know what they do with it - but you can.
I don't expect the reseller of masks to take the hit either though. Its not that same in all industries, but manufacturers of devices often take the returns from the resellers of the products that do not meet customer expectation. So the consumer returns the product to the reseller and the reseller gets credit from their supplier, etc.
-
rock and roll
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas
Amen,
WalMart managed to get to be the biggest retailer ever in a business that averages 38% markup and they did it by the customer is always right and they guaranteed everything. As long as Sam
Walton was running it if you were unhappy with an item for any reason they would take it back.
Why,
Because he made his manufacturers guarantee their products. IF CPAP manufacturers had nto be held accountable for their products and had to take it back if we were not happy, I bet big that our products would improve and the price would go down.
WalMart managed to get to be the biggest retailer ever in a business that averages 38% markup and they did it by the customer is always right and they guaranteed everything. As long as Sam
Walton was running it if you were unhappy with an item for any reason they would take it back.
Why,
Because he made his manufacturers guarantee their products. IF CPAP manufacturers had nto be held accountable for their products and had to take it back if we were not happy, I bet big that our products would improve and the price would go down.
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ahujudybear
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 10:12 am
- Location: Franklin, WI
My angelic DME came through once again! It seems I sort of broke my mask (found out it is a Fischer & Paykel HC 407 mask - not the 405 as I had thought. They are VERY similar.
Any way, as I was taking it off yesterday, the wire came out of its slide on the front of the mask - and I could NOT get it back in. Since I was going near the DME office today I stopped in so they could fix it. They could not. They brought out a 405 and another 407 and she asked if I wanted to try the 405 while I was at it. After all the discussion about that filter here, I opted out. So she gave me a brand new 407 to replace mine and said she would show mine to the sales rep!
And then the sky cut loose and I had to leave in a downpour! (We cut up a trash bag for a slicker! <LOL>)
- JB
Any way, as I was taking it off yesterday, the wire came out of its slide on the front of the mask - and I could NOT get it back in. Since I was going near the DME office today I stopped in so they could fix it. They could not. They brought out a 405 and another 407 and she asked if I wanted to try the 405 while I was at it. After all the discussion about that filter here, I opted out. So she gave me a brand new 407 to replace mine and said she would show mine to the sales rep!
And then the sky cut loose and I had to leave in a downpour! (We cut up a trash bag for a slicker! <LOL>)
- JB
-
rested gal
- Posts: 12881
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Tennessee
-
rested gal
- Posts: 12881
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Are you saying that if someone under the "Mask Protection Plan" (I like that idea, btw) returned a mask to cpap.com, cpap.com would in turn send the mask back to the manufacturer??? Why would you (cpap.com) bother to send returned masks back to Respironics, ResMed, Puritan Bennett, et al, unless you were going to be reimbursed something by the manufacturer? We're not talking about cpap.com returning defective products to the manufacturer...just a perfectly good mask that the "protection plan" user chose to send back to cpap.com.Does the customer pay for shipping from cpap.com (once we received the mask) to the Manufacturer?