Slow Wave Sleep-Is it relevent for adults?

justplainbill · Post by **justplainbill** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:42 pm

We have had 2 people post recently that their sleep doctors told them that slow wave sleep (aka delta sleep, stage III/IV sleep and sometimes as deep sleep) is not important except for children and teens.

Is anyone here acquainted with studies, articles, books that support this contention? Could you perhaps post some links?

Thanks,
Bill

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:48 pm

According to Micheal Breus Ph.D a sleep specialist known on WebMD, Ophra and else where SWS is very important, it is thought to be where you obtain the most restorative effects of sleep, according Dr. Breus, it can also impact weight gain, hormones and health effects.

I watched one of his seminars last night on local PBS station.

Slinky · Post by **Slinky** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:15 pm

SnoreDog!!!!! You old fart you! YOU watch OPRAH???? Do you watch soap operas too? General Hospital? One Life To Live? Days of our Lives???

activensleepy · Post by **activensleepy** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:33 pm

justplainbill; next time I see sleep doc I'll ask him in more detail why he believes it drops off for us adults. The question is "at least a little?" Some of us hose heads have little to none. Perhaps RLS/PLMD or other spontaneous events create havoc.

I'm not on the Xyrem.com wagon yet, but I'm to young not to have some delta sleep.

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:12 am

justplainbill wrote:We have had 2 people post recently that their sleep doctors told them that slow wave sleep (aka delta sleep, stage III/IV sleep and sometimes as deep sleep) is not important except for children and teens.

I agree with that. I'm not a doctor, though. LOL! But I still agree that delta stage sleep is not important for "older" people. Stage 2 and REM are, though.

justplainbill wrote:Is anyone here acquainted with studies, articles, books that support this contention? Could you perhaps post some links?

Thanks,
Bill

Some of these links might not work now. Haven't checked them...it's late.

http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/stages/

http://web.umr.edu/~psyworld/sleep_stages.htm

http://www.sleepdoctor.com/stages.htm

http://www.sleephomepages.org/sleepsyllabus/

Some more links are at:

Dec 20, 2004 subject: Who can answer this question?

From what I've read, as we get older, the time spent in stages 3 & 4 decrease. Apparently it's normal for older people to not have much, if any, stage 3 or 4 sleep.

Recently the AASM has dropped making a distinction between stage 3 and stage 4 in PSG scoring: combining those into just one stage called N3, I believe.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:39 am

SWS does indeed drop off as we age; However, it's not normal for SWS to be absent. Research indicates that there is a link between vigorious exercise (30 mins of cardio work at least 3x week) and SWS, especially in older adults.

So, perhaps the reason for the decline is the lack of exercise that usually accompanies aging? I had an 80 yr old man in my lab the other night and he scored out 18% SWS......wow........the next morning, I asked about exercise, and he told me he still walks 5 miles /day.

Something to think about

mindy · Post by **mindy** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:48 am

Sounds possible, Guest! Even though SWS drops off with aging, we do all really need that restorative level of sleep.

As one of those rapidly aging folks , I find that I get very irritable if I have lousy quality sleep. I then remind myself of some of those old grouches I used to encounter when younger. So now I wonder that age-associated grouchiness is associated with lack of SWS?

Mindy

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:03 am

I'm not a bitch, I'm just sleep deprived.

Thanks for a new bumper sticker!!!!
Babette

mindy · Post by **mindy** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:08 am

Anonymous wrote:I'm not a bitch, I'm just sleep deprived.

Thanks for a new bumper sticker!!!!
Babette

Love it

Mindy

socknitster · Post by **socknitster** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:13 am

Personally, I am 35 years old and think slow wave or delta wave sleep is critical for my health. When I was diagnosed in June with apnea, my psg showed that I wasn't experiencing ANY delta wave sleep until they hooked me up to a CPAP. Once the cpap was on, my body immediately plunged me into delta sleep and the tech said I stayed there for longer than anyone they have ever seen.

Delta sleep is when your body makes all those tiny repairs of all the miniscule damage you do to your joints and muscles etc during the day. Having been deprived of delta sleep for so long, I had been experiencing the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis and/or fibromyalgia for a few years. This was debilitating! My joints were in constant pain. The rheumatologist didn't know what to do with a 35 year old patient with these symptoms and told me to keep taking my antidepressants to help me cope.

Within weeks of being on cpap, these symptoms started to evaporate. I was no longer in constant pain. So, in addition to losing fatigue and depression, regaining mental acuity and lowering my blood pressure--I also regained my 35 year old body. I now experience normal aches and pains for my age--which is to say a minimal amount.

I would venture a guess that delta sleep is critical to us all. Perhaps having less of it as we age is more of a cause of aging than a result. I don't know, but I do know that I will never discount ANY part of sleep whatsoever, ever again. Of course, I am only one person, one story, not a scientific study. But I have sure heard a lot of stories here of people with similar symptoms to mine.

Jen

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:15 am

Guest wrote:So, perhaps the reason for the decline is the lack of exercise that usually accompanies aging? I had an 80 yr old man in my lab the other night and he scored out 18% SWS......wow........the next morning, I asked about exercise, and he told me he still walks 5 miles /day.

Something to think about

Good point.

Five miles a day, huh? That's WORK...even at a walk!

I think I'd rather slowly let my slow wave drop off by the wayside.

But yeah, that's good to know for people who want to try to get some slow wave sleep back, or more of it. Thanks.

socknitster wrote:I would venture a guess that delta sleep is critical to us all. Perhaps having less of it as we age is more of a cause of aging than a result.

Good post and good point too, Jen.

jskinner · Post by **jskinner** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:59 pm

I suspect there is a purpose of all stages of sleep. According to Dr Timothy J Walter he believes that memory upload (from short term (hypo campus) to long term storage) occurs during slow wave sleep and that memory consolidation occurs during REM.

While our sleep architectures changes during our life time I have seen nothing to indicate that we no longer need certain stages.

Titrator · Post by **Titrator** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:54 pm

Medication will hinder slow wave sleep. It also drops off due to body producing less of a substance. I will have to look that one up to tell you exactly what slows down. But I do know that anti depressants hinder both SWS and REM.

In REM sleep your metabolism speeds up. If you don't have much REM, the needed increase in your metabolism is one of the factors that can make you gain weight with OSA.

justplainbill · Post by **justplainbill** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:17 pm

Thank you all for your input and special thanks to RG for those links (especially the sleepsyllabus!) (but do note that the sleepdoctor link does not work).

I appreciate all your input and it does add a few new wrinkles to my understanding.

I would appreciate activensleepy's doctor's opinion. I am really much less interested in the question of why slow wave sleep drops off as we get older. I am far more interested in the proposition that after the teenage years you absolutely don't need slow wave sleep. I am interested because tthis seems to fly in the face of my (admittedly limited) understanding of the role of slow wave sleep, it contradicts the personal experiences of folks like Jen, and it is in seeming contradiction to certain research into alpha wave intrusions (which disrupt slow wave sleep).

On the other hand, it does appear that there may be situations in which a lack of slow wave sleep may not have a good remedy (whether or not causes can be identified), I can also imagine (though I am strictly brainstorming here) that the sleep study process itself may cause major but temporary disruptions to slow wave sleep (which would create a false sense that the person has no slow wave sleep whereas they just were lacking short wave sleep on that occasion). And (again I am brainstorming) I can imagine the possibility that if you dragged a large number of people of the street and gave them sleep studies you might find some people who have no slow wave sleep and who do not identify themselves as having any particular sleep disorder or health problems-who are asymptomatic.

In any case, while I do not personally think that people in general cannot go without slow wave sleep without any adverse effect, I would be interested in considering any materials that supports that thinking just to become more acquainted with the issue. But please don't think that I'm getting ready to swear off of slow wave sleep personally or to recommend that others do so.

Thanks again.
Bill

activensleepy · Post by **activensleepy** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:47 pm

I'll probably see my doc in Jan to review hopefully my last study next month. As for your brainstorming to the lack of SWS at times in sleep studies, your right on spot.

Most folks here will note in their sleep study report a section called "architecture". The worse than typical quality of sleep or those of us with SWS absent can be and is chalked up to 'first-night effect. Often called the white-coat effect at the doc's office and your blood pressure is through the roof.

In the lab, my sleep latency is within 15-20 minutes. Having 4 of these over the years I'm pretty relaxed and not freaked about being hooked-up so I question more closely the lack of this important stage of sleep.

I have a gut feeling that at home in our own comfy beds we probably get some degree of this stage of sleep during the week. If not, does this explain the EDS that never goes away even after CPAP? hmmm I'll ask the doc.

Cheers

activensleepy

Slow Wave Sleep-Is it relevent for adults?

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