Childhood sleep problems?

Country4ever · Post by **Country4ever** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:53 am

Hi all,
I was wondering if most of us suffered from some sort of sleep problems as children? I did alot of sleep-talking and sleep-walking. For a long time I had trouble getting to sleep too. I also had tons of trouble staying awake in high school. We had lunch around 10:30 and back then it was total carbs. Oh how I struggled to stay awake in English class!
I had a traumatic childhood. I wonder if that factors into sleep problems? I wonder if our subconscious learns to be hypervigilant and won't let us sleep too deeply? Thanks for your perspectives.

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:24 am

I started complaining of excessive fatigue when I was 11 but I was in my 20s before doctors started taking me seriously ... other than that I never had any sleep problems that I knew of.

echo · Post by **echo** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:30 am

I could never get to sleep, even as a child. Sort of insomnia or delayed sleep thing (such a disorder apparently exists). Then I could never get up in the mornings. When i got older it was blamed on "lack of discipline" and "lack of interest". Bastards!

Now if my treatment's going well, I have a good sleep schedule. if it's off (ie. when i started mouth leaking) I immediately get the "insomnia" back and my sleep schedule shifts to 3am & 4am bedtimes.

I think part of it is related , as you say, to the subconsicoous. In my case: my brain keeps me awake to avoid going to sleep because it knows i will be suffocating all night!

Not to mention all the increased adrenaline and cortisol your body releases to keep you awake during the day to fight the sleep deprivation.

what a vicious cycle! I wish more KIDS would get diagnosed. Sure would have saved me from nearly flunking out of school, nearly getting fired from work, being depressed from the moment I hit puberty, etc etc etc

Country4ever · Post by **Country4ever** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:48 am

I've wondered about the adrenlalin and cortisol too.
Even though I have been fatigued forever (alot because of my fibromyalgia), I have never been able to nap. The rest of my family can take 4 hour naps.....mine are about 10 minutes and that's it.
It seems like if I'm so sleep deprived, I should be able to sleep for hours..........but I think the adrenalin keeps me from sleeping during the day....in spite of the fatigue. My CPAP is helping some, but not like I'd hoped. But with my fibromyalgia, I also have alpha wave intrustion...which means every time I go into a deeper sleep, my evil twin bops me in the head, 'til I wake up.

socknitster · Post by **socknitster** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:20 pm

I started suffering from insomnia and excessive somnolence in high school too. When i was stressed (often, I was involved in everything and held myself to a high standard with grades) I often had trouble sleeping at night especially before important events.

At other times I would pass out during school. I often slept during study hall or fought drowsyness during classes (I'm sure the teachers must have thought I was a party girl or a late night studier). I often came home from school and snoozed for a couple of hours. My mom would come home from work and be very worried about me, because she knew I wasn't up late or anything. My bedtime was 10pm in hs. Strictly inforced. My parents were strict.

I have no doubt cortisol and adrenaline were already having their way with me then. From that age on I suffered from fairly severe anxiety problems and was in total denial about it.

I never had a clue I had apnea until a doctor suggested it this past summer. I knew I slept more than most people and that I was more tired, but I thought that was individual variation, not a symptom. I did ask for a sleep study a few months before my diagnosis from my psych because my antidepressants just couldn't get me going anymore. All I wanted to do was sleep and sit in a chair. I've been on antidepressants for my anxiety and depression for most of my adult life.

Now, on cpap, I'm off them all and feeling better than ever before.
Sure wish that doc had listened to me then. It might have saved me a few months of sleep deprivation.

My son is 4 and just had his tonsils out because of apnea. My ent says any apnea in children is unacceptable. They desaturate too fast. He didn't have a polysomnogram--between the size of his tonsils and the fact that I observed apneas myself when I watched him sleep--that was enough data for the doc to recommend the surgery. Apparantly this cures 99% of apnea in kids. The doc says if his sleep doesn't improve in a couple of months he will need a psg to rule out any other sleep problems.

There has been conjecture in the medical community that early removal of tonsils may prevent apnea in certain susceptible children as they grow into adulthood. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and I'm also going to be hyper-vigilant. I don't want him to suffer the way I have.

jen

Perchancetodream · Post by **Perchancetodream** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:23 pm

echo wrote:I could never get to sleep, even as a child. Sort of insomnia or delayed sleep thing (such a disorder apparently exists). Then I could never get up in the mornings. When i got older it was blamed on "lack of discipline" and "lack of interest". Bastards!

Now if my treatment's going well, I have a good sleep schedule. if it's off (ie. when i started mouth leaking) I immediately get the "insomnia" back and my sleep schedule shifts to 3am & 4am bedtimes.

I think part of it is related , as you say, to the subconsicoous. In my case: my brain keeps me awake to avoid going to sleep because it knows i will be suffocating all night!

Not to mention all the increased adrenaline and cortisol your body releases to keep you awake during the day to fight the sleep deprivation.

what a vicious cycle! I wish more KIDS would get diagnosed. Sure would have saved me from nearly flunking out of school, nearly getting fired from work, being depressed from the moment I hit puberty, etc etc etc

Wow, that could have been my story, including my conclusion that my brain was keeping me awake to protect me from suffocation!

Now that I can track my sleep with the Encore Pro, I've noticed that the morning hours are the ones that give me the best sleep with the lowest AHI, VS, FL and pressure readings.

Maybe we are wired differently from the very start...

Susan

echo · Post by **echo** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:07 pm

Jen, I meant to ask you before but forgot. Your doctor says that a tonsillectomy can avoid most cases of OSA in kids - is there some sort of age limit or recommendation for that?

Reason I ask is that I had my tonsils out when I was 10 but I think that I had the OSA before then, and for sure after then.

Though at my first consult with the sleep doc, before even taking any history, she said that she would bet money that I had OSA due to the shape of my throat/face (small mouth, slightly receding chin).

So that makes me a big believer in the anatomical causes for OSA! But I am sure that other things make it worse, especially when you get the chain reaction going of sleep deprivation and poor health both making the other worse.

Susan - I also have a different pattern in the morning hours but I haven't been able to figure it out yet! I think I need _less_ pressure in the mornings because that's when I tend to get the blowfish/lip flutter effect.. or maybe it's due to being more relaxed in the mornings? I still need to use the xPAP for a few more weeks before I can establish some trends.

Oh yeah one more sleep thing I had before xPAP: I slept like the DEAD- NOTHING could wake me up! Not the three alarms around my room, the wake-up phone calls from my family, 'nuthin! AND if my roommates (or parents, when I was younger) did try to wake me up before I had my 10 or 11 hours of sleep, I would go into a half-asleep rage. Once I threw a screwdriver at my roommate who tried to wake me up so I wouldn't miss class! That sort of reminds me of Harry's night terrors that you mentioned Jen, except I can't really remember having nightmares, just that if I was woken up too early I would "flip out".

now i really need to go to bed! happy PAPping everyone
.

Country4ever · Post by **Country4ever** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:52 pm

I have noticed with my sleep that I think my best sleep is from 5a.m.-8a.m. For many years, I lost that, having to get up at 5:30 to get the kids ready for school. I wish we could tell when our REM sleep is. I think most of mine is then.
When I had my sleep study..... I didn't have any REM at all.

jskinner · Post by **jskinner** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:10 pm

socknitster wrote:I did ask for a sleep study a few months before my diagnosis from my psych because my antidepressants just couldn't get me going anymore. All I wanted to do was sleep and sit in a chair. I've been on antidepressants for my anxiety and depression for most of my adult life. Now, on cpap, I'm off them all and feeling better than ever before.

I think every person having trouble sleeping and on antidepressants should be given a sleep test. I think the psychiatric community would be shocked to lean how many of their patients actually have a real sleep disorder. It should be standard practice to test before prescribing. It saddens me to think how many people are waking around taking meds and being told they are mentally ill when infact they really have a collapsing airway...

socknitster · Post by **socknitster** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:30 am

Jen, I meant to ask you before but forgot. Your doctor says that a tonsillectomy can avoid most cases of OSA in kids - is there some sort of age limit or recommendation for that?

Reason I ask is that I had my tonsils out when I was 10 but I think that I had the OSA before then, and for sure after then.

Though at my first consult with the sleep doc, before even taking any history, she said that she would bet money that I had OSA due to the shape of my throat/face (small mouth, slightly receding chin).

Echo, the doctor actually told me that tonsilectomy would cure osa in most children, not that it would prevent him from getting it again as an adult. I got that from an article on pubmed online. I hope it is right. But it wasn't saying it was true for all or even large amounts of children, just some. I can't remember the percentage. It really was speculation. I"m just really hopeful. Harry doesn't appear to have the receded chin, but he is only 4 and further growth and development will reveal that later.

I, too, have the same type of small mouth/receded jaw that you describe. But I think having my tonsils out greatly helped my OSA, but it didn't cure it because the real problem is the small mouth/large tongue. One day I am going to seriously look into that tongue-tether surgery I have seen getting lots of press lately. I've been told a cure for me is MMA/GA surgery, but the recovery for that is outrageous. I'm only 35, so another 50 years on xpap sounds ridiculous, but I don't think I'll ever be willing to do that extensive of surgery.

What is interesting is that I would bet that both of my parents have OSA (both are stubborn and refuse to be evaluated). My dad has the same receded chin but my mom has a more typical chin position. I'm guessing I got the double whammy from both. Bad structures leading to bad breathing. I'm hoping my children don't inherit that!

James,

I agree. I bet there are lots of people on antidepressant that are actually sleep disordered. It still makes me angry when I think about that psych refusing the sleep study for me. Maybe I should write him a letter. He is about to retire, though, so it won't make much of a difference. He was a super nice doctor, but totally unaware of how much symptoms of sleep disorders and mood problems can overlap. Like most of the medical community! Hopefully that will change with time.

Jen

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:58 pm

BTW I was also on Wellbutrin for dysthymia (chronic low-grade depression) for a year a couple years before I was dx'ed. The symptoms of dysthymia and sleep deprivation are nearly identical (excessive daytime sleepiness, brain fog, weight gain, general lack of energy...) and I don't snore, so I guess it was a reasonable diagnosis. At least the doc who prescribed the Wellbutrin took me seriously, even if she got it wrong.

I was going to write her a letter but I suspect she knows, my mother goes to the same doctor and I finally managed to get my mother to get a referral for a sleep study, so I imagine she's told her (my former) doctor about my diagnosis.

deepurpleprincess · Post by **deepurpleprincess** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:03 pm

I was fine as far as sleeping goes as a child and teenager. My heart did do funny flip things though. However I started taking medication for depression, anxiety, and panic disorder when I was 21 and I felt like a zombie from then on. I had brain fog and was sleeping alot. I thought it was just the meds, until I started snoring horrible and gasping for breath that was witness by other people. I have severe sleep apnea. All this time I blamed the meds, but it was something else.

Country4ever · Post by **Country4ever** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:26 pm

Tilly.........how did you do on the Wellbutrin? It made me really anxious and dried me out totally. It also gave me PVCs, and short bursts of rage in the afternoons! I got off it.

sharon1965 · Post by **sharon1965** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:58 am

as far back as i can remember i've had sleep problems

i could sleep around the clock, even at an age when kids naturally wake early and start running around like little maniacs! was always profoundly tired, sleepy, sluggish; nothing and no one could wake me, and i could get out of bed after sleeping for 12-14 hours and go back to bed an hour later

had nightmares my whole life, sometimes every night of the week...sleep walked, sleep talked right up until earlier this year (still do both on occasion, not as much since cpap), in fact, i used to act out my dreams on a regular basis; my mom took me to a dr. when i was a kid but they told her i'd grow out of it

always, even as a toddler, snored like a power drill, always had a large uvula, which many dr's commented on, but nothing beyond 'wow, it's huge'

have complained my whole life about feeling generally crappy, but was labelled as whiny and lazy...even just before my severe OSA dx, my dr was trying to prescribe me effexor for a non-existant depression and pretty much telling me to get off my ass

i have fibromyalgia, osa, plmd, rls...experienced adrenal crash and sudden gain of 40 + lbs in less than six months (sadly that has increased by another 10 lbs in the last 6 months for a grand total of 50 extra lbs on a five foot tall woman )

though i'm grateful for my family and friends and have lived a truly fulfilling life (so far)when i think of who i could've been if someone had looked into my symptoms as a child, it makes me sad, indeed...as it was, i've always struggled so hard to achieve anything and always wondered why everything seemed to be so difficult

you can bet i'm keeping a close eye on my kids...especially my 13 yr old daughter who has a small mouth and narrow jaw and who snored like crazy when she was just 5 yrs old...she had her tonsils and adenoids out at 7, but she may still have a tendency toward osa...

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:47 am

Country4ever wrote:Tilly.........how did you do on the Wellbutrin? It made me really anxious and dried me out totally. It also gave me PVCs, and short bursts of rage in the afternoons! I got off it.

I did fine on it, although it did give me ringing in my ears (a common side effect) that didn't go away completely until after I'd started CPAP, even though I'd been off the WB for about a year and a half at that point. It also made me clench my jaw but that went away when I went off it. But no really bad side effects.

When I went on it, I felt great for about a week although still a bit tired, then it would stop, til at the end of 30 days I felt as tired and brain-fogged as ever ... they increased my dose 3 times and every time, the same thing happened. Then I went off it, and again I was less tired and brain-fogged for a couple weeks and then it got worse again.

My PCP didn't seem to find this surprising—the part where every time there was a change, I felt better briefly. Something about it sort of shocking my body into giving me more energy even though I still wasn't really sleeping.

I was on Wellbutrin XL, btw, that's supposed to have fewer side effects than the old formulation.

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