sleep stage time calculation from detailed compliance data

[Rob613]

I'm new to this forum. I am a fairly long-time CPAP user. I'm using a Philips Respironics System One auto CPAP machine.
I've been running my own Encore Pro compliance data reports for several years and I've been fascinated by the under-utilized data available in waveform displays that none of my previous sleep doctors gave any consideration.
Is it possible to calculate any sort of sleep staging based only on the compliance data to try to determine the amount of time spent in each general category of sleep stages, for example, to try to determine the number of hours of restorative sleep?

[Pugsy]

Not unless someone becomes extremely adept at figuring out flow rate breathing and how it may or may not related to sleep in general and then to sleep stages per se can we use the flow rate instead of brain waves for measuring sleep status.
Some people think they can spot REM stage sleep breathing because of minor differences in flow rate and they consistently see it and it happens when we would expect REM to happen.
Me...I have never been able to see any consistent pattern in any differences to form any conclusions.
I am doing good just to tell the difference between awake and asleep and sometimes I am not 100 % sure.

[chunkyfrog]

If the data were reliable, I imagine labs would use it all the time,
because it would be less expensive.
But hey! Is there anything more fun than cleaning glue out of hair?

[Morbius]

Some people think they can spot REM stage sleep breathing because of minor differences in flow rate and they consistently see it and it happens when we would expect REM to happen.

And only phasic REM at that.

[Pugsy]

Some people think they can spot REM stage sleep breathing because of minor differences in flow rate and they consistently see it and it happens when we would expect REM to happen.

And only phasic REM at that.

Yeah....more work....just what I don't want to be doing.
Long ago I adopted the attitude that I don't go trying knowing for sure the stuff that I have zero control over anyway.
All the ads that promote knowing about your sleep seem to insinuate that knowing means you can fix problems and unfortunately not that easy. So yeah...suppose I know for sure that I don't get enough of any stage of sleep....then what the hell can I actually do about it after I know something is lacking and I need to change something?
I already got my body telling me that fact. Unfortunately my body doesn't seem to want to tell me how to fix the bad sleep or not enough sleep.

Realistic expectations vs unrealistic expectations....I don't waste time or energy trying to solve unrealistic beyond what we already know about things we can maybe change that might need to be changed to improve sleep hygiene.
I got 5 1/2 hours of "sleep" (actually machine usage to which I know wasn't all sleep anyway)....I already know that I didn't get enough sleep in any sleep stage to expect optimal results. I don't need to spend hours examining the flow rate to tell me that fact. My body is already doing a damn good job of making me aware of that fact.

And I no longer have the curiosity itch to go digging through all this stuff that needs to be scratched.
If someone wants to just scratch a curiosity itch....that's fine too. Their time and their energy they will be expending.

[SJ-Paddler]

Doesn't FitBit track sleep stages by using wrist motion and heart rate?

I am not a sleep expert but would breathing have a stronger correlation to sleep stages than heart rate?

[Pugsy]

Doesn't FitBit track sleep stages by using wrist motion and heart rate?

They try with mainly heart rate. It's far from perfect though. I tried it with a FitBit and it told me I was in deep sleep when I know for a fact I was up and awake and letting the dog out to go pee.
So we have to take the results with a grain of salt despite what they say.

I am not a sleep expert but would breathing have a stronger correlation to sleep stages than heart rate?

Not necessarily. Breathing while awake can be more irregular than asleep breathing but not everyone will experience big marked differences between awake and asleep breathing.
Example....I can use the "auto ramp" feature on ResMed machines that is supposed to not increase the pressure to the set minimum until the person is asleep and I can breathe so regularly while awake that the machine will suspend ramp and go to the minimum while I am awake. I can be awake and the machine thinks by my breathing that I am asleep. I know this because I tried it. I can fool the machine if I want to into thinking I am asleep just by forcing nice even breaths.

So while breathing can sometimes be used to denote sleep....it's not 100%...and it's not easy for a person to figure it out sometimes. As for actual different sleep stages...pretty much impossible to figure the sleep stages out just from breathing/flow rate. A few people have said they can spot REM and even if they are correct that leaves the other sleep stages unknown.
We can't figure out sleep stages from just the data showing the flow rate or breathing. Just too many variables involved.

[chunkyfrog]

IMO, fitbit is a fad, and not much better than a toy.
The fact that they are designed to only be worn in a visible place, (wrist)
as opposed to a more ergonomic location, tells me they are also a fashion statement.
Not really serious, except in their latest application--dairy cow nutrition guide.

[Rob613]

I appreciate all the fast replies and the comparisons with other devices that aim to perform a sleep time calculation.
I come to this question with both a late-skewed sleep schedule and possibly an above-average daily sleep need.

What additional data would be needed to be able to perform some of the calculations discussed in this thread?

In my last sleep study, while I was traveling, they had me use my own CPAP machine and just a few sensors.
There are also home sleep studies (my first home study several decades ago had many sensors) which seem to use simple strap-on devices, or possibly just a few simpler sensors.

Perhaps any of the Neural Impulse consumer devices (used for gaming) or within the [defunct] zeo device could capture enough scientific data, particularly in sync with waveform data of breathing (regardless of whether it really has flow rate) to be able to compute things with a greater level of confidence?

Dr. Jed Black of Stanford was published talking about the comparison of 12-hour daily sleep need with a size 12 shoe, that there really is no normal. So to the degree that our bodily systems tell us whether or not our own personal recent sleep need has been met is something left to our bodies to determine, I can understand that. Knowing our typical sleep need satisfaction efforts in units of hours of sleep out to be of interest.

For me, my intuitive sense is that even inexact sleep time (within general sleep stages) would tend to match how my total time in bed correlates with attempts to reduce total time in bed by having a later bedtime.

[Morbius]

Perhaps... the [defunct] zeo device could capture enough scientific data, particularly in sync with waveform data of breathing (regardless of whether it really has flow rate) to be able to compute things with a greater level of confidence?

When did Zeo funct?

https://www.amazon.com/Zeo-Model-ZEOBP0 ... B002IY65V4

[Morbius]

Then there's Muse stuff:

https://choosemuse.com/muse-s-guided-bu ... gLfYfD_BwE

[Morbius]

Build your own:

https://shop.openbci.com/collections/fr ... 6379766856

[palerider]

Perhaps... the [defunct] zeo device could capture enough scientific data, particularly in sync with waveform data of breathing (regardless of whether it really has flow rate) to be able to compute things with a greater level of confidence?

When did Zeo funct?

https://www.amazon.com/Zeo-Model-ZEOBP0 ... B002IY65V4

I had a couple of them over the years, they seemed to work pretty well.

[GrumpyHere]

Perhaps... the [defunct] zeo device could capture enough scientific data, particularly in sync with waveform data of breathing (regardless of whether it really has flow rate) to be able to compute things with a greater level of confidence?

When did Zeo funct?

https://www.amazon.com/Zeo-Model-ZEOBP0 ... B002IY65V4

~ 2013 per https://www.mobihealthnews.com/20772/ex ... tting-down
more info: https://techcrunch.com/2013/05/22/sleep ... goodnight/

The android app was last updated in 2016 so may not work with later Android versions - https://github.com/azmikemm/ZeoCompanion

[chunkyfrog]

Strap-on devices during a sleep study . . .
Now I can't think of anything else.

I know--bad froggie!