Leak Rate And Pressure Question

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bossfan
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Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by bossfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:36 am

Before I get to my actual question, I am getting a "too many redirects" error when I click on a link from a google search and when I log in and out of the forum. Is there a solution to fix this problem?

I just changed my machine from a Respironics System One Bipap ASV to a Dreamstation Bipap ASV. With the System One my leak rates were minimal and 0.00% over the red line. My first 2 nights on the Dreamstation it shows a high 95% leak rate and red line over 20%. I know Dreamstation shows two leak rate graphs and that the lower graph is the one to focus on. To me the lower graph does not look like it is over the red line that much. I'm just wondering why the new machine is showing a different leak rate and if it's an issue that needs to be solved.

My other question is that my pressure graph seems to be less steady on the Dreamstation than the System One. Does the newer Dreamstation have a different algorithm that would cause the different pressure chart reading?

Last Day System One Chart
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oscar20210608.png (139.4 KiB) Viewed 826 times

First Two Days Dreamstation Chart
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Machine Settings:
Mode ASV
Min EPAP 9.00 cmH2O
Max EPAP 15.00 cmH2O
Min IPAP 12.00 cmH2O
Max IPAP 25.00 cmH2O
PS Min 3.00 cmH2O
PS Max 10.00 cmH2O
Auto On Off
Breath Rate Auto
Hose Diam. 15mm
Humid. Lvl 4
Humid. Mode Heated Tube
Humidifier Connected
Mask Res. Lock Off
Mask Resist. 1
Ramp Pressure 4.00 cmH2O
Ramp Time 20.00 Minutes
Ramp Type SmartRamp
Rise Time 3
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Pugsy
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:59 am

The red line percentage shown in the statistics column on the left is in error because the software is using a wrong baseline red line to compute the percentage of time over the red line.
It's using a ResMed leak number as the threshold and Respironics machines don't use the same threshold for the red line.

Respironics actually doesn't have a static threshold for large leak....instead it varies as the pressure varies and with the ASV model machine the pressure varies a LOT.

So you have a couple of choices...ignore that statistic and just eyeball the time in large leak shown on the Events graph.
Or change the red line threshold to something more in line with where Respironics says the red line is.
Or...turn off that statistic.

To change the red line threshold to something more appropriate for a Respironics machine...
In OSCAR/SleepyHead....go to upper left corner...click on File then Preferences and then cpap tab...upper right of the cpap tab you will see that the threshold number is 24 L/min...that's a ResMed number and way below a Respironics threshold.
We aren't given a static number but something around 50 or 60 L/min is a nice conservative leak threshold number for the calculations that the software does to determine time over red line.

The redirect error thing....what operating system on your computer and which browser are you using?
No easy fix. A lot of us were hit with it a while back. I will see if I can find the thread. It was a sticky for a while.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:02 am

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:36 am
My other question is that my pressure graph seems to be less steady on the Dreamstation than the System One. Does the newer Dreamstation have a different algorithm that would cause the different pressure chart reading?
To my knowledge the algorithms didn't change. Respironics didn't tell us one way or the other.
Most likely the variations are normal night to night variations because we don't sleep the same each night OR maybe the sensors on your old machine were acting up a bit for some reason or other. No way to really know. Did they change sensors???? Maybe..maybe not...again they didn't share with the public any changes like that.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Dog Slobber » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:06 am

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:36 am
Before I get to my actual question, I am getting a "too many redirects" error when I click on a link from a google search and when I log in and out of the forum. Is there a solution to fix this problem?
Yes, after getting the "too many redirects" error, edit the URL and remove the "https://www.". Then resubmit.

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:36 am
My first 2 nights on the Dreamstation it shows a high 95% leak rate and red line over 20%.
Don't worry about the redline.

The (leak rate) red line at 24 LPM is a ResMed thing. At 24 LPM or more, ResMed's start to loose the ability to properly detect and address Apneas and Flow Limitations.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:07 am

http://cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t181226/S ... t=redirect

Thread where the redirect thing was discussed...and cussed.

You will probably have to use another bookmark link (some are included in the topic above) once you can find one that doesn't cause the redirect thing. Huge thread...big headache last January.

I still can't access the forum on my iPap Pro through Safari but I can through Chrome....and on my Windows PC I use FireFox but another bookmarked link which I think I posted in that thread above.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by zonker » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:57 am

Pugsy wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:07 am

I still can't access the forum on my iPap Pro through Safari but I can through Chrome....and on my Windows PC I use FireFox but another bookmarked link which I think I posted in that thread above.
good to know you can at least reliably get in here on something!
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by bossfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:33 am

Regarding the too many redirects I am using Windows 10. Problem happens with both Chrome and Edge.
The bookmark link suggestion is fine but it does not help when clicking on a link from a Google search, but the suggestion to edit URL to remove "www" works. So that is a pain but at least if I find something on a google search I have a way to view the topic in the forum.

Regarding the leak rate red line I will set it to 50 L/min, keeping in mind that it is not exact and I'll pay more attention to the Large Leak events graph. But in an effort to understand this better I would like to ask another question. On the cpap people web site there is this Respironics intentional leak rate PDF
https://www.thecpappeople.com/Files/Int ... 0ports.pdf

Can you help me interpret this? I have a Dreamwear mask. Is the cm pressure at the top of the graph for EPAP, IPAP, or PS? How do I determine the intentional leak and unintentional leak rate based on my settings?

Thank you for the help. This site is a godsend as I get better answers here than my primary or sleep doctor give me.
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:27 pm

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:33 am
Can you help me interpret this? I have a Dreamwear mask. Is the cm pressure at the top of the graph for EPAP, IPAP, or PS? How do I determine the intentional leak and unintentional leak rate based on my settings?
For practical purposes think of that intentional leak/vent chart as IPAP pressures since IPAP is going to be the highest and vent rate directly relates to highest pressure. Think of that chart as what would happen if you were using fixed cpap at that pressure without any sort of exhale relief.

Obviously when using an ASV machine you won't ever mirror what a cpap machine does at fixed pressures and there simply is no easy or practical way for you to figure out where your leak numbers fall.
I would just watch the events graph and not worry about "numbers"....trust your machine to tell you if your excess leak is a problem or not.

Since Respironics never really can give us a static number beyond those numbers on the chart you linked to (which are based off fixed IPAP/CPAP pressures without exhale relief)....damn near impossible to manually figure it when bilevel pressures are used.
It will drive you crazy trying to sort it out and even if you did get it figured out perfectly....how's it going to change anything???

I don't know of any way you can do what you are wanting to do when using anything other than fixed cpap mode without any sort of exhale relief or PS. Way too complicated.

If leaks aren't waking you up (no matter how big or little) then I would shrug my shoulders and move on.
Now if leaks are disturbing sleep then we look at ways to reduce them so that they don't disturb sleep.
A few minutes here or there in large leak...not the end of the world unless it wakes you up.
It's the waking up part that is more harmful than the impact on therapy when large leaks are involved.

You would need total leak of over 110 L/min and excess only leak number of around 90 L/min before it's going to impact therapy itself.
At leak numbers that high...the sensors will get all screwed up. Machine won't function properly.
You are no where near that level of prolonged large leak....remember duration of the leak is also a factor.
10 minutes in large leak territory...not that big of a deal but 100 minutes up there would potentially be a big deal.

Trust your machine...if you are seeing some short lived large leak flags that you sleep through...shrug your shoulders and move on.

If leaks are waking you up...do what you can do so they don't wake you up so much.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by bossfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:27 pm
bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:33 am
Can you help me interpret this? I have a Dreamwear mask. Is the cm pressure at the top of the graph for EPAP, IPAP, or PS? How do I determine the intentional leak and unintentional leak rate based on my settings?
For practical purposes think of that intentional leak/vent chart as IPAP pressures since IPAP is going to be the highest and vent rate directly relates to highest pressure. Think of that chart as what would happen if you were using fixed cpap at that pressure without any sort of exhale relief.

Obviously when using an ASV machine you won't ever mirror what a cpap machine does at fixed pressures and there simply is no easy or practical way for you to figure out where your leak numbers fall.
I would just watch the events graph and not worry about "numbers"....trust your machine to tell you if your excess leak is a problem or not.

Since Respironics never really can give us a static number beyond those numbers on the chart you linked to (which are based off fixed IPAP/CPAP pressures without exhale relief)....damn near impossible to manually figure it when bilevel pressures are used.
It will drive you crazy trying to sort it out and even if you did get it figured out perfectly....how's it going to change anything???

I don't know of any way you can do what you are wanting to do when using anything other than fixed cpap mode without any sort of exhale relief or PS. Way too complicated.

If leaks aren't waking you up (no matter how big or little) then I would shrug my shoulders and move on.
Now if leaks are disturbing sleep then we look at ways to reduce them so that they don't disturb sleep.
A few minutes here or there in large leak...not the end of the world unless it wakes you up.
It's the waking up part that is more harmful than the impact on therapy when large leaks are involved.

You would need total leak of over 110 L/min and excess only leak number of around 90 L/min before it's going to impact therapy itself.
At leak numbers that high...the sensors will get all screwed up. Machine won't function properly.
You are no where near that level of prolonged large leak....remember duration of the leak is also a factor.
10 minutes in large leak territory...not that big of a deal but 100 minutes up there would potentially be a big deal.

Trust your machine...if you are seeing some short lived large leak flags that you sleep through...shrug your shoulders and move on.

If leaks are waking you up...do what you can do so they don't wake you up so much.
My wanting to understand this is that I thought any large leak affects proper therapy. Your answer tells me that is not the case so thank you for doing that.
Last edited by bossfan on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:04 pm

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 pm
I thought any large leak affects proper therapy.
How much of an effect will depends on how big the leak was (how deep into large leak territory you went)....how long you were that deep....and did the leak wake you up.

Example...suppose the red line for large leak territory (excess leak only) was 50 L/min and anything above that was flagged as large leak but you only went to 55 L/min and that was for maybe 15 minutes. The machine probably could compensate quite decently for that time in large leak and remember even if it did impact the therapy it only impacts it for the period of time you were in large leak. The rest of the night is unaffected and likely greatly outnumbers any large leak time.
Now if your excess only leak number was 100 L/min and it lasted only 5 minutes....short lived for sure but if you spent 2 hours at 100 L/min...that's a potential significant problem.

It's not always going to be perfect for any number of reasons and trying to attain perfection or 100% corroboration is really an unrealistic goal. The docs don't expect perfection. Leaks happen to the best of us.

When you add in just how your ASV machine functions when it is doing its job there are too many variations to draw any lines...impossible to manually corroborate large leaks and even harder to fix something that has already happened. It's water under the bridge.

The other night I had my ResMed machine give me the red frowny face for leak management....I don't normally see Mr Frowny but when I do it means I spent more than 30% of the night in large leak territory. Now how deep did I go....I don't know as I haven't looked at the software details. If I saw Mr Frowny often I would get more proactive about things but since I don't see him very often I just don't care as long as I sleep through the leaks.
For all I know ....the worst of my leaks might have been 28 L/min for 30% of the night and the machine can compensate for that small amount of leak no matter how prolonged it might have been.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by bossfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:12 pm

@Pugsy thanks.

Now my goal is to try and get my AHI under 5. You helped me with settings before with my old System One. The machine settings look to be the same that I had on System One. With this new Dreamstation does the chart show you anything that I could adjust to see if I can get my AHI lower?

And as I was writing this message I got a call from my DME with a question about the machine that I got that I need to ask you about. I asked my doctor to prescribe a Resmed Aircurve. I was given the Dreamstation. The doctor prescribed a PS min of 3.0 and PS max of 10.0. DME says that the Resmed only has one PS setting instead of a range which doesn't sound right to me. They called the doctor and the doctor told them to switch me to the Dreamstation because she wanted me to have the range. Mind you I was not notified of this ahead of my getting the machine.

Does Resmed only have one pressure range setting because that doesn't make sense. From what you know about the two machines is there a range setting that Dreamstation has that Resmed does not have which would have prompted the DME to contact my doctor to tell them that there was a range setting prescribed that Resmed does not have?
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:45 pm

bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:12 pm
So is it true that Resmed only has one pressure setting because that doesn't make sense and I think the DME is wrong.
bossfan wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:12 pm
DME says that the Resmed only has one PS setting instead of a range which doesn't sound right to me.
The ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV has both a minimum and maximum PS just like the DreamStation ASV.

The DME is wrong about the ASV.....now the AirCurve 10 VAuto Or S model...its PS is a single fixed pressure.

Pretty sad state of affairs when DMEs either don't know their products or blatantly just lie about it so they can force a sale of a different brand.

I would be raising holy hell if it were me.

Give me a few minutes to find proper technical specs to prove it to you....that the AirCurve ASV has a range of PS settings offered and not just a fixed PS. I need to find the clinical manual and not sure if I have it.
I have used its older big brother in the S9 model line...and it did indeed have a PS range available.
I can't seem to locate specs at the moment.

As for potential tweaks of the new machine so you get results like you got with System One.
Some questions first...
How much time are you spending awake with mask and machine on?

I am looking at the June 10 report and I see some clusters of hyponeas....and especially the one at the beginning of the night when you first turned the machine on. I am betting you weren't asleep that fast.
And another cluster from approx 4:00 to 4:20....any chance you were awake at that time?

Do you ever sleep on your back?
Do you know if your sleep apnea is worse when on your back or in REM stage sleep?

Before I would go tweaking anything I would try to figure out if you were for sure asleep or not when those clusters got flagged.
If you weren't asleep then they don't count. We can't fix awake flagged stuff by setting tweaks. Have to fix the issue that caused the awakening instead.

Similar cluster on the June 9 report at around 5:15 mark where there is an obvious break in therapy so we know you were awake.

Your reports screams more of a poor sleep quality thing than it does a therapy treatment thing at this point.

Do you know how to zoom in on the flow rate to look for evidence of awake breathing vs asleep breathing? Have you ever done that?

To fix any problem we first have to try to identify the cause of the problem...and at this point I am not so sure that the higher hyponea count is related to something fixable with some setting tweaks.

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Okay...as promised...proof that the ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV offers a minimum and maximum PS (independent of each other)
From the clinical manual (which I got from the apnea board) via email attachment after requesting it since I didn't have it already.
Page 11 of the manual
A 10 ASV settings PS min and max.JPG

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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by bossfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:59 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:45 pm
The ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV has both a minimum and maximum PS just like the DreamStation ASV.

The DME is wrong about the ASV.....now the AirCurve 10 VAuto Or S model...its PS is a single fixed pressure.

Pretty sad state of affairs when DMEs either don't know their products or blatantly just lie about it so they can force a sale of a different brand.
I got confused when I knew a Resmed had been ordered for me but the Dreamstation was waiting for me when I picked it up. I should have refused it but I didn't understand why a change was made. I called the DME on Wednesday and again on Thursday to follow up and they did not call back until today to explain what happened.
I would be raising holy hell if it were me.
I will call DME on Monday but by then I will have had possession of the Dreamstation for 5 days so I won't hold my breath that something will be done. The DME said to me that they told the doctor that they could not set the Resmed with the range prescribed. I don't understand why the DME thought this and I don't understand why the doctor did not question it. It's frustrating and the DME and the doctor are equally to blame for this. I basically get that the Resmed has a better algorithm and is more proactive than reactive, but can you offer me a fairly concise argument that I can give to the DME as to why the Resmed is the better option.

As for potential tweaks of the new machine so you get results like you got with System One.
Some questions first...

How much time are you spending awake with mask and machine on?
I feel like I usually fall asleep between 20-30 minutes after I go to bed. But I never get a full night sleep. Sometimes I wake up after 2-3 hours and most times I just about get to 4 hours with an occasional 5-6 hours before I wake up and take the mask off. Then I might sleep for another couple of hours but I'm not getting treatment for those last couple of hours.
I am looking at the June 10 report and I see some clusters of hyponeas....and especially the one at the beginning of the night when you first turned the machine on. I am betting you weren't asleep that fast.
And another cluster from approx 4:00 to 4:20....any chance you were awake at that time?
Before I would go tweaking anything I would try to figure out if you were for sure asleep or not when those clusters got flagged.
If you weren't asleep then they don't count. We can't fix awake flagged stuff by setting tweaks. Have to fix the issue that caused the awakening instead.
It usually takes me 20-30 minutes to fall asleep so the first hypopnea cluster I'm sure I was awake. But the cluster from 4:00-4:20 I believe that I was asleep, unless I woke up without being consciously aware of it.
Do you ever sleep on your back?
Do you know if your sleep apnea is worse when on your back or in REM stage sleep?
I am 100% a back sleeper. I fall asleep on my back and wake up on my back. So unless I am shifting body position while sleeping then my apnea is always while on my back.

Similar cluster on the June 9 report at around 5:15 mark where there is an obvious break in therapy so we know you were awake.
Yes I turned off machine when I woke up to go to the bathroom. Since this is a new machine I need to meet insurance compliance. I was under 4 hours so I turned machine back on when I went back to bed.
Your reports screams more of a poor sleep quality thing than it does a therapy treatment thing at this point.
Truth. I started therapy back in September after years of not using it. I don't feel like I'm sleeping great and I'm tired when I first wake up. And as stated before I never get a full night of sleep. I wake up anywhere from 2 to 5 hours after falling asleep. Occasionally I get 6 or so hours but the norm is 2-5 hours. It is actually why I wanted to try the Resmed because I was hoping that it's treatment would give me a better sleep than the Respironics.
Do you know how to zoom in on the flow rate to look for evidence of awake breathing vs asleep breathing? Have you ever done that?
I know how to zoom in but not sure what to look for. Here are a couple of zooms from the June 10 report at hypopnea times. I know the first cluster I was still awake so I did not zoom in on that cluster. If you think it's helpful to show you the June 9 report let me know.
oscar20210610_zoom1.png
oscar20210610_zoom1.png (127.23 KiB) Viewed 732 times
oscar20210610_zoom2.png
oscar20210610_zoom2.png (123.61 KiB) Viewed 732 times
oscar20210610_zoom3.png
oscar20210610_zoom3.png (122.86 KiB) Viewed 732 times
To fix any problem we first have to try to identify the cause of the problem...and at this point I am not so sure that the higher hyponea count is related to something fixable with some setting tweaks.
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Re: Leak Rate And Pressure Question

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:28 pm

When you are evaluating for awake vs asleep breathing you first look at the flow rate pattern right before the event flag(s).
So let's take the cluster beginning at 04:08 on Jun 10 report.
You were sound asleep up to approx 04:07:30 (approx...if you zoomed in a bit closer we could see more accurately the time frame) ...see the change in flow rate bigger breaths BEFORE that first flagged hyponea event??? That big breath tells me you weren't sound asleep.
Now you may or may not remember the arousal but an arousal did happen.
All those subsequent flags....it doesn't appear to me that you ever really went back to sleep at least solid sleep.
If that were my report I would pretty much put all the flagged events in the SWJ sleep/wake/junk (false positive) basket and worry about what messed with my sleep.

Now if you didn't have that obvious arousal breath PRIOR to the first flagging....then maybe a real event caused the arousal.
I see this sort of thing quite often myself because I get a lot of arousals from pain...some I remember and some I don't.
That particular cluster just screams poor sleep quality even though you don't remember being awake because your breathing looks like awake/semi awake breathing and not asleep breathing.

Now why the crappy sleep???? Million dollar question and not an easy one to answer.

As to your thoughts about how to get the doc and/or DME on board with dispensing the AirCurve 10 ASV after saddling you with the Respironics.....I dunno a sure fire answer to that one.
The doctor not questioning the DME doesn't surprise me because most of the time these docs don't have a clue which brand does what in terms of available settings.

I would start with the doctor though because you will need him on board to have any chance in hell of getting the DME to swap for the AirCurve ASV.
The DME likely sells Respironics machines because they got a better wholesale deal from Respironics. That's a common reason.
They could have ordered the ResMed ASV but likely it would cost them more than the Respironics cost them and since they get paid a fixed amount from insurance they prefer to dispense the one that they make more money on. Happens all the time.

I don't know if they purposely lied to you and your doctor or simply didn't know what the ResMed ASV could do....but either is totally unacceptable to me. It's their job to know the products out there. Doctors trust them to know the products available.

You can still swap brands if you push it. But you will have to push it and get the doctor on board most likely as well.
People do it all the time.
Now I don't know if the ResMed algorithm will be better for you or not but you won't ever know unless you try.
I would use the "not sleeping good" argument for starters if it was me...add in the "not feeling good" argument as well. :lol:

I would be raising holy hell.
You are still in the rent to own time period...you can return it because you don't feel it is helping and find another DME that will supply the machine you want (and your doctor wanted) if you want to push it. Sometimes that threat is enough to get the DME to order the other brand. It's better to make some money than no money if you return the machine. Sometimes the bluff works but if not...you call up your insurance company and find another DME that is network and call up that DME and tell them what your doctor wants you to have and ask "will you supply that machine".

BTW....I have used both brands in the ASV models myself. I preferred the ResMed ASV ....it let me use less pressure to get better results than I got with the Respironics plus it was quieter and I felt I slept better with the ResMed.
I can't guarantee that you will see the same results as I did but until you get a chance to at least try it....you won't ever know.

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Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.