A not so profound oximeter discovery.

[snork1]

90% is usually considered the cutoff for "safe" oxygen desat.
IF that is your lowest for the night it is well above 90%.

Some docs say a drop of 4% below your baseline is a concern.

If you are feeling bad and staying above 90% its definitely time for a sleep study. I COULD be something as simple as Restless leg syndrome or any number of other medical issues that I wouldn't venture to guess.

[Mile High Sleeper]

Gregg, since you live in the boonies, and sleep apnea is a serious condition, have you considered this? It's a quote from the light bulb/expand all/sleep studies, if you want a version where the links work.

Alternatives to a Laboratory Sleep Study

In-home test though a physician. Some physicians and insurance companies suggest an in-home test. The patient wears various sensors and belts through the night. The results are monitored and reported. Sleep stages and brain waves cannot be measured as they are in a laboratory sleep study. One in-home process used by Kaiser, http://www.sleepdata.com/homecare.htm, measures apneas and hypopneas per hour, heart rate, respiratory effort, nasal-oral airflow, oxygen saturation using a pulse oximeter, body position, and snoring intensity and frequency. Simpler devices are the SLP Sleep Strip, http://www.slp-med.com/SleepStripTech.htm and the Accutest SleepStrip, http://www.accutest.net/products/sleepstrip.php. If you explore these alternatives, discuss with your physician the need and ways to detect OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) vs. central apnea (brain not giving a signal to breathe) and mixed sleep apnea (combination of OSA and central), since treatment is different for the three types, as well as detecting other sleep disorders such as Restless Leg Syndrome. Also determine whether your insurance or Medicare will pay for subsequent treatment based on testing that is not the standard sleep study.

[Gregg]

Snoredog,

Yes it does have a pulse recording ability. And I have correlated the low sats with high pulse rates. But that still doesn't tell me anything. The heart is just responding to the lack of breathing, whatever the cause may be. Central or obstructive.

I can make assumptions, but I can't go much further than what I've found here. I mean, I think it's psychological stress, and a very slight obstructive apnea combination. But I won't go any further, since it's just guessing. It's a good guess based on my own experience with what is happening in my life.

Lance's resting heart rate is 37. I'm not too far from him. I have ridden a bike about 20 miles every other day for the last 35 years. I'm 140 pounds. People tried to get me to be an olympic bike rider. But I went another direction. I even entered a race recently, and kicked ass on the kids. At 50 that's an accomplishment.

There is no doubt this is apnea. However slight. And again, today, I feel like hell. Headache, tiredness. Just horrible. It's every day. And it has been this way many years. I always thought it was hangovers, since I drank every night. It was only when I stopped that I realized it was something else.

I'm thinking of reinstating my insurance and going for the sleep study. I didn't mean to take up forum space with this thread. But I think the oximeter study has been useful. I just don't see a solution. I don't think my problem is something cpap will take care of. And I've tried the oral fixture. I think it's just me being stressed and having nightmares and not breathing in. But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

[Snoredog]

[quote="Gregg"]Snoredog,

Yes it does have a pulse recording ability. And I have correlated the low sats with high pulse rates. But that still doesn't tell me anything. The heart is just responding to the lack of breathing, whatever the cause may be. Central or obstructive.

I can make assumptions, but I can't go much further than what I've found here. I mean, I think it's psychological stress, and a very slight obstructive apnea combination. But I won't go any further, since it's just guessing. It's a good guess based on my own experience with what is happening in my life.

Lance's resting heart rate is 37. I'm not too far from him. I have ridden a bike about 20 miles every other day for the last 35 years. I'm 140 pounds. People tried to get me to be an olympic bike rider. But I went another direction. I even entered a race recently, and kicked ass on the kids. At 50 that's an accomplishment.

There is no doubt this is apnea. However slight. And again, today, I feel like hell. Headache, tiredness. Just horrible. It's every day. And it has been this way many years. I always thought it was hangovers, since I drank every night. It was only when I stopped that I realized it was something else.

I'm thinking of reinstating my insurance and going for the sleep study. I didn't mean to take up forum space with this thread. But I think the oximeter study has been useful. I just don't see a solution. I don't think my problem is something cpap will take care of. And I've tried the oral fixture. I think it's just me being stressed and having nightmares and not breathing in. But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

[Offerocker]

Snoredog,

But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

That bottom line/revelation bears repeating:

But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

I hope you can put yourself in a position to do that without much delay, Gregg.

[Snoredog]

Snoredog,

But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

That bottom line/revelation bears repeating:

But only a sleep study and tons of cash will reveal it with more accuracy.

I hope you can put yourself in a position to do that without much delay, Gregg.

I can't see adding any more anxiety than what he already has, from the data displayed, I can't see where his condition is even close to being a mild case much less critical or urgent one.

Your SPO2 levels change throughout the night when you are normal, that is not unusual. His SPO2 levels have not dropped below <89%, the so called line in the sand where it becomes medically significant.

There are a lot of factors that can contribute to EDS. From what I can tell, he is healthy, young and in excellent shape so his SDB risk is probably low. There can be many causes of EDS including blood disorders to allergies. If you want a free blood test, go donate a pint. I'm sure if he is athletic he is keeping track of his pulse rates, hypertension etc. SPO2 by itself doesn't mean much of anything, the machine could be out of calibration, and Pulse Oximeter by itself is not very accurate. It may be used as a screening tool but never alone to obtain a diagnosis.

If a person is concerned with the data seen they should share that with their GP for an opinion. They will weigh current health status, medical and family history to come up with a decision going forward.

But a PSG in a lab remains the gold standard for any SDB diagnosis.

[Gregg]

I should add that I went to the neurologist about a year ago to get a full checkup including blood tests.

I'm perfectly healthy, aside from having monster headaches from whatever is happening to me at night.

But from my experience at the local hospital/clinic I made the decision to never go back.

I spent much of my younger years working in hospitals. And I just didn't get the feeling they were trustworthy.

By the way, the neurologist thinks the problem is due to stress. But we all know how accurate opinions are.

I just think these forums are invaluable for many reasons. I appreciate being able to post something that is somewhat off topic, in the respect that this is more of a cpap forum than apnea and migraine related.

So thanks all you guys!

[-SWS]

Is there any such thing as "non-sleep apnea"?
I find myself holding my breath during the day; more frequently when stressed, but have also found it to be true when doing something relaxing.
This "condition" has been happening for years. I TRY to be conscious of it (for awhile, after noticing it happening), but of course that doesn't last long.

Is there a known reason for a person doing this routinely?
Is this a trait of a "shallow breather"? ...and why to both of those...

Hey, Kathleen! You may find relevant search results by Googling "daytime hypoventilation". Then again, those search returns may not really match what you are experiencing. Good luck!

[Snoozin' Bluezzz]

Gregg and Kathleen:

As we remain a little off topic I would like to ask - have either of you tried any form of mindfulness practice such as meditation. I ask Gregg because of the stress issue. I ask Kathleen because of the daytime breathing question.

I have found a consistent, disciplined practice difficult to sustain because I am not good at consistent, disciplined practices of any sort but, that being said, when I have approached such a norm of practice it has made a huge difference in my stress levels, my irritability, my sleep, my concentration, my memory and my focus. You would think with all of that I would find it easier to sustain but...

Just asking.

David

[Offerocker]

SWS: THANK YOU for that!!
What a round-the-world trip, cycling through all of the informative threads. YES, quite helpful, as spinal trauma present, myclonus, ....I have appt w/dear internist this Friday, and will readdress the Central Hypoventilation Syndrome suspicions - thanks for the 'magic word' - always a relief to be able to put a 'handle' on something, and I believe you were correct in your suggestion of hypoventilation.
I now also better understand the types of apneas, and that indeed someone can have both.


DAVID: You gave excellent advice in meditation (for me, practicing breathing techniques.) Yup, mostly it's being aware of it WHEN it's happening, in order to modify behavior. It wouldn't hurt for me to MAKE the time to devote a block of hours to just 'paying attention' and intervening. I learned to put myself to sleep with controlled breathing, so hopefully I can also do this - and stay awake, of course.
OK, I give! Where is room 736? I'd meet you there if only I could find it!!

Thank you both for picking up that question and for your kindnesses.

Snoredog: Interpretation is in the mind of the beholder.

[Gerald]

Gregg.....I've come to the conclusion that the word "stress" is not defined very well. I'm not sure the medical community really knows what it is.

For myself. I suspect that "stress" may simply be a problem of too much adrenalin being produced for whatever reason. In my case, Hypopnea/Apnea was causing me to produce too many "flight or fight" (adrenalin) chemicals at night. I'd wake up in the morning "wired" on my own chemicals....and this caused high blood pressure. Once I figured out how to stop my body from producing "fight or flight" chemicals at night, my BP dropped dramatically.

My idea of what "stress" actually is goes like this: If I produce too much "fight or flight" chemical, my body finally loses the ability to regulate things (BP) properly. The regulation mechanism gets "tired" and wears out.
I liken it to diabetes where the pancreas finally "gives up" and can't regulate blood sugar any more.

Feeling bad during the day may simply be your body reacting to over-production of adrenalin during the night.....as a result of inconsistent breathing patterns. Hope this helps.

[Gregg]

Gerald,

Yes, that's what I feel like.


I bet there's more to central apnea than we know. I'm very stressed about something. When the level got to a point, my sleep took a turn for the worse. I wish I could do more than speculate.

I see a sleep study in the near future.

[Offerocker]

Gerald:
I agree with what you said about the correlation between a 'good sleep' and daytime stress. I've found that I'm better able to handle my stress durig the day since being 'more compliant', in that my stress threshold has been raised.

I also think that some carry over daytime stress to our sleep, impairing its benefits.
So, over time, improvement of quality sleep improves our daytime stress level, and then we need to find a way to improve the management of stress during the day.

Would you agree or disagree with my deduction on this?

It seems to be a vicious cycle that is much improved with xpap treatment when needed.

Of course, everyone has different stress 'levels' to begin with, and also has different 'control mechanisms', some of which can be controlled, and some not - for the present, anyway. Just my 'take' on this subject from my personal experience.
For me, there remains an area of improvement for dealing with daytime stress, but thankfully, has improved remarkedly with my xpap treatment with supplemental oxygen.

Prioritizing and time management have been the keys. (ADD)

We each have different components with which to deal, complicating this whole thing!

Some of this may apply to Gregg also.

[Gerald]

Rocker......If we define "stress" as an excess production of adrenaline (fight or flight chemicals....hormones....enzymes...etc.), then I think you and I agree on your "carryover" idea.

For me, bad sleep (hypopnea, apnea, central, complex, whatever) was causing me to stop breathing (periodically) at night....thereby causing an excess production of bad chemistry. I could feel it. My systolic BP went nuts......and when I encountered a rough time with my 94-year old father (alzheimers), all the negative chemistry associated with that problem kicked me right over into high BP during the day.

Until that time, my problem had stayed sort of "hidden".....high spikes in BP at night (systolic over 200)......moderately high BP in the morning....then, near normal BP in the evening before bed.

Once I put a gauge on my system......and took my BP when I woke up at night (with a high pulse rate), I began to see what was going on. Yikes!


I'm betting that Gregg is getting "juiced-up" on his own bad chemicals....caused by his brain trying to warn him or wake him up at night when it (his brain) thinks he might be near death. That's what was happening to me.

I found an article that described exactly what was happening to me (in much more eloquent terms than I've used here)......and I posted a link to it......about a month ago. If you think it'd help, I'll look it up again and post it. I found the article fascinating....and right on the point.

[Offerocker]

Gerald:

VERY interesting, and worth more thought.

YES, I for one would be most interested in reading more about it! I'd appreciate your re-posting that topic! Thanks.

...wouldn't 'brain chemistry' have been an interesting subject to have had available in high school?

I used to take my 'brain' (simplifying "the system") for granted; it was an organ that "did it's thing", seemingly took no maintenance on my part except to "use it", and it usually didn't get damaged by anything I did.

In adulthood, I learned that it "worked" while I was sleeping, performing a self-reorganiziation. (pre-DOS)

AHa! I would suspect that the "reorg" didn't always go all that well, due to numerous interruptions due to sleep apnea -??

It is amazing to me how well so many people have been able to function so well in spite of that. It is also puzzling to one psychiatriast that a person can succeed so well, in spite of brain misfirings. No wonder we are a 'tired group' without treatment.