cure for M series leaks

[Catnapper]

I asked someone who sells the CPAP equipment about the leaks in the M series Auto-PAP and he said:

"Officially, Respironics is now recommending that you remove the swivel elbow at the back of the machine. The suspicion is that water is condensing in the hose and leaking out of this elbow."

How about that for an easy fix? The only time I have had a leak was one night when I was having the rainout problem. It makes sense that water in the nose means water in the hose. If the machine is lower than your head, the water could settle in that swivel.

I will try it tonight and let you know. Anyone else want to try it too? We could all report our results. If it works, that will remove a reason to gripe about the M. I sure like it otherwise.

Catnapper

[Snoredog]

that makes logical sense but I don't buy that as the solution. I had suspected the exact same thing, so I removed the Respironics swivel elbow and replaced it with the 90 degree elbow that came with my Aussie heated hose (see picture).

The M series humidifier uses a LOT of water, roughly 6oz. per night for me and I have it set to 1. I can only imagine what you folks go through that live back east as you have lots more humidity than I do in California.

you can see the white plastic elbow I'm using from the aussie heated hose, it doesn't swivel, it doesn't leak water, it has no seams to leak water, Respironics needs to get off its duff and redesign the lid on that tank either to reduce the amount of moisture it delivers and/or to keep it from sloshing out so easily.



Here is what it looks like on the inside of the humidifier housing, you can see water at the back corner:


Catnapper: Try yours without using the swivel elbow as suggested, I will use the aussie elbow and try turning UP the humidifier until I get rainout and see what happens.

But you can see how I route my hose that it goes down as it leaves the machine, I can actually pivot that elbow down even more. I don't usually get rainout, but I did one night with the M series.

Where I suspect it may be coming from:

1. From the above picture you can see the water is in the INSIDE of the housing at the rear. If water was condensing in the swivel elbow and hose was up/level I could see where it may leak from the swivel part of the elbow on to the night stand. I eliminated that possibility by switching to an non-swivel elbow that has no seams for the water to leak out.

2. The location of the water tells me the water is possibly running down the exterior top of the lid of the humidifier tank. For this to happen, water would be condensing in the tank and leaking at the silicone in/out let tank gasket. This gasket seals where you see the two square holes above.

3. I pressure tested my tank at 20.0cm pressure using my RemstarPro in cpap mode. I had no leaks at the O-ring gasket.

Here is the tank:

I suspect the water is leaking at the square silicone gasket on the tank and running down the top surface of the lid where it pools at the back/bottom. This seal is only made by pushing the tank into the housing. If that gasket leaks it could easily be where it is coming from, after all it is under pressure from the machine.

You can see the pains I've taken with mine, putting a catch pan under the machine, switching elbows, making sure I don't tilt the tank to spill any water etc. and I still had a puddle under the machine and inside as you see in the picture above but about twice the amount of water shown. If this keeps up my $185 humidifier will be ruined in no time. The water leaks inside the humidifier platform and stays where you cannot dry it out. It runs out the vent holes in the bottom of the humidifier platform, if you remove the tank and lift it up water runs out everywhere.

Last night's testing update:

1. I taped the HandiWipe to the top of the tank and carefully filled the tank to the Full mark and inserted it in the housing.
2. I set the Humidifier to setting #3, after about 15-minutes using my Soyala mask, I was getting way too much moisture, so I turned off the machine and checked for leaks. Here is what I found:

This is the end of the M series tank, you can clearly see a water droplet dripping off on the tank lock:


Here is how much water formed in the housing in only 15 minutes:


So I moped up the water inside the housing, took the tank to the sink and dumped out the water. I examined the O-ring, it appeared to be fine, wasn't rolled over deformed or anything, if I had to say there was anything wrong with it, it would have to be it is too small in diameter. In any case, I got some vaseline on my finger and went all the way around the O-ring to lube it up a bit. I then put the tank back together, slid the lock to the locked position and refilled the tank, but this time I made sure the water level stayed below the O-ring level shown in prior pictures. I used it the rest of the night and NOT a single drop leaked. There was NO water on the HandiWipe.

My Conclusion - Shuttle O-rings: My original tank pressure test when the tank was COLD failed to identify the leaky O-ring.

One possible reason why it failed was I tested the tank COLD with COLD water. This tank injection mold appears to be designed backwards. The top lid slips inside the bottom tank. As the tank warms up from the heating element the bottom half of the tank gets warmer than the top and will expand. The top lid doesn't expand as much as the bottom because there is no real heat transfer. So you have the bottom of the tank expanding due to heat and the top lid staying the same size. This tank will never seal unless you reverse the tank-lid design or use a O-ring that is much larger that allows for more expansion.

Suggestion: Don't fill the tank ABOVE the green O-Ring level (above), forget the tank side markings for fill levels. Keep the water level below that O-Ring level and it will be fine until a non-leaking tank is found.

Note: My tank came from injection mold #2, dated 08-06 (see below). Both tank and lid have same injection mold number and date code. So the #1 theory mentioned doesn't seem to hold true.

[muld00n]

The M series humidifier uses a LOT of water, roughly 6oz. per night for me and I have it set to 1. I can only imagine what you folks go through that live back east as you have lots more humidity than I do in California.

I'm no expert on this subject and I don;t have an Auto M, but I have observed that water usage/consumption appears to be more of a function of which mask I am using. For example, My Comfortlite II uses much less water that when I use my Swift; everything else being equal (same setting on the humidifier). BTW, I have a RemStar Pro.

Go figure.

[oldgearhead]

My Comfortlite II uses much less water that when I use my Swift;

The passive port flow (designed leak) is a bit less for the CL2 when compared to the Swift (29 vs. 32 at 9.5 cm/H2O). I wonder if it uses more water because it uses more air?

[DreamStalker]

My Comfortlite II uses much less water that when I use my Swift;

The passive port flow (designed leak) is a bit less for the CL2 when compared to the Swift (29 vs. 32 at 9.5 cm/H2O). I wonder if it uses more water because it uses more air?

That is correct. In addition to temperature, humidity (and therefore water use) is a function of air flow and surface area of water/reservior.

- r

[JohnD]

I received a replacement tank from cpap.com and I have not had one leak since. The last week, I have set the humidifier on 2 without any rainout or leaks. It does almost deplete the water tank on 2 though, but I do not fill the tank right to the fill line, just a tad below it, for safety.

Interesting note....the last few nights using the leaky tank, it stopped leaking...go figure?! .....the only thing I can think of that was different, was the fact that I was opening and closing the tank to clean it everyday, so it may have had something to do with that blue seal between the 2 halfs of the tank?

[Snoredog]

I received a replacement tank from cpap.com and I have not had one leak since. The last week, I have set the humidifier on 2 without any rainout or leaks. It does almost deplete the water tank on 2 though, but I do not fill the tank right to the fill line, just a tad below it, for safety.

Interesting note....the last few nights using the leaky tank, it stopped leaking...go figure?! .....the only thing I can think of that was different, was the fact that I was opening and closing the tank to clean it everyday, so it may have had something to do with that blue seal between the 2 halfs of the tank?

I may contact Adam for a replacement tank also, I was waiting and testing on my own to see if I could figure out where it was coming from, there have been all kinds of theories including mine. I didn't want them to go to the trouble of sending me a new tank and have it do the same thing.

Tonight I'm going to try and tape a pieces of colored construction paper on the top of the lid of the tank, it should show by changing color if it gets wet and confirm my theory.

Adam suggested in an email that I check that O-ring, I did that first thing, it is what triggered me into pressure testing the tank. I never take my tank apart for cleaning and hadn't before checking it, I just rinse it out with tap water normally. This tank was only a week old.

[Alisha]

Hello all. I just got off the phone with Chris from cpap.com. Respironics' factory had two different machines manufacturing the chamber for the M Heated Humidifier. One of the machines was putting out the bad chambers. They have corrected the problem with this machine and none of the chambers produced after the correction will leak.

Respironics has made a sufficient number of good chambers to replace the ones that leaked. The ones made before the correction have a "1" inside a circle on the top of the chamber. I have one of the bad chambers and cpap.com is sending a replacement. Fortunately I had not yet used the new equipment and did not incur any water damage.

**** Editors Note ****

The above paragraph need clarification. Some Respironics chambers with '2' leak. There are no known '1' chambers leaking due to the same defect. CPAP.com is accepting and replacing leaky '2' chambers. As always, if you have a defective chamber of any kind or number, we will have a look at it for you and take the proper corrective action.

Chambers can leak for a number of reasons: worn out O rings, improper reassembly after washing or cracks due to wear and tear. These problems are distinct from the "#1" and "#2" chamber issue.

Johnny

**** End of Editors Note ****

Those of you who are still trying to figure out where the leak is or to find a way to stop the leak might want to go ahead and return it to the DME and request a replacement. Your DME should not hesitate to accommodate you since Respironics is supplying the replacements. Chris at cpap.com said he doesn't believe I'll even need to return the bad chamber.

Anyone who is considering purchasing an M Heated Humidifier now should ask when it was shipped from the factory and even if they tell you they just received it, be sure to look on the top of the water chamber to be sure it doesn't have the number "1" on it. If it does, refuse to purchase it.

I am trusting that the information I was given is correct and hope this will answer some lingering questions and will help anyone contemplating purchasing the M Heated Humidifier.

Regards,

_________________

CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): respironics, humidifier, cpap.com, DME

[Snoredog]

Hello all. I just got off the phone with Chris from cpap.com. Respironics' factory had two different machines manufacturing the chamber for the M Heated Humidifier. One of the machines was putting out the bad chambers. They have corrected the problem with this machine and none of the chambers produced after the correction will leak.

Respironics has made a sufficient number of good chambers to replace the ones that leaked. The ones made before the correction have a "1" inside a circle on the top of the chamber. I have one of the bad chambers and cpap.com is sending a replacement. Fortunately I had not yet used the new equipment and did not incur any water damage.

Those of you who are still trying to figure out where the leak is or to find a way to stop the leak might want to go ahead and return it to the DME and request a replacement. Your DME should not hesitate to accommodate you since Respironics is supplying the replacements. Chris at cpap.com said he doesn't believe I'll even need to return the bad chamber.

Anyone who is considering purchasing an M Heated Humidifier now should ask when it was shipped from the factory and even if they tell you they just received it, be sure to look on the top of the water chamber to be sure it doesn't have the number "1" on it. If it does, refuse to purchase it.

I am trusting that the information I was given is correct and hope this will answer some lingering questions and will help anyone contemplating purchasing the M Heated Humidifier.

Regards,

Thanks for the updated information Alisha. However after reading your post I went and checked my leaky tank, it appears to be newer than yours it has a "2" on the underside of the tank lid, then it also has a injection mold mfg date code in the circle with a date code of 08-06 (meaning August 2006 is when it was mfg.) and mine clearly leaks.

So I think we are back to the drawing board as far as finding the exact cause of the tank leak.
Here is the single stand-alone number molded into mine:

Here is the injection mold date code:


Here is what I plan to do tonight:

1. I cut a piece of Handywipe, it turns darker color when wet, taped it to the top of the tank where I suspect it is leaking, if it leaks from the tank silicone gasket that handy wipe should turn darker blue as shown.

2. If it is dry in the morning, then it is back to the drawing board.


taped to the top:

[Bregory]

I got my M-Series humifier about 3 weeks ago, I was weary but the guy in the clinic said it would not leak that this problem was fixed. First night it leaked, I continued to use it through the weekend with a towel underneath, every morning the towel was dry. I got brave enough to use it again without the towel and it leaked again.

At this point I called the clinic and went in the next day, he swapped out the chamber and I haven't had a leak since.

I just checked the number on my new chamber and it appears to be a number "1", which doesn't seem to fit with the theory.

It will continue to be a mystery I suppose.

[Snoredog]

I got my M-Series humifier about 3 weeks ago, I was weary but the guy in the clinic said it would not leak that this problem was fixed. First night it leaked, I continued to use it through the weekend with a towel underneath, every morning the towel was dry. I got brave enough to use it again without the towel and it leaked again.

At this point I called the clinic and went in the next day, he swapped out the chamber and I haven't had a leak since.

I just checked the number on my new chamber and it appears to be a number "1", which doesn't seem to fit with the theory.

It will continue to be a mystery I suppose.

Thanks for the update, that helps, can you read the "date code" on yours?

You have to sperate the tank, it will be below the "1" very hard to read, I had to macro it to take a picture of it.

as mentioned I think some DME's are coming up with all kinds of unproven theories so they can continue to sell machines without finding the exact cause of the problem. Of course it is not up to the DME's to find the cause, it is up to Respironics.

[Alisha]

Snoredog, the pictures you show are an exact replica of what is on the bottom of my chamber. The same thing is on the smaller side of the top of the chamber. I told cpap.com about the mirror 2 and was told to look for the number in the center of the circle. The larger number in the center of the circle is 1. I used a mirror magnified 10x to be more sure of what I was looking at.

The first circle of numbers is: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. (There is an arrow pointing to the
The second circle of numbers is: 06 07 08 09 10 11. (There is an arrow pointing to 06)
Then there is the larger 1 in the center.

It would seem this mfg code shows it was manufactured in 8 of 06 by machine number 1. Machine number 1 is the culprit that made the tanks that leak.


Bregory, where is the number 1 on your replacement chamber? Is there a number in the very center of the mfg code beside the arrow pointing to 06? Is the mfg code shown on both the bottom and on the smaller side of the top of the chamber? If you use a mirror (a magnified mirror is even better), you won't have to separate the tank. Did you by any chance read the mfg code on the first chamber you used? Your input will be very useful to find out if I was misinformed.

Thanks, you two. Hopefully, we can get this mystery solved.

[Snoredog]

Alisha wrote:

The first circle of numbers is: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. (There is an arrow pointing to the Cool
The second circle of numbers is: 06 07 08 09 10 11. (There is an arrow pointing to 06)
Then there is the larger 1 in the center.

It would seem this mfg code shows it was manufactured in 8 of 06 by machine number 1. Machine number 1 is the culprit that made the tanks that leak.

It appears Respironics hasn't quite figured it out yet as they thought, our tanks were manufactured about the same date/time, mine by mold #2 and yours by mold #1 yet BOTH appear to leak.

I'll let you know when I get some more water pooling in mine where it may be coming from, hopefully, then we'll let Respironics know so they can fix it instead of them guessing at the cause

[JohnD]

Well, after reading the posts here, I went and took a look at both the leaky chamber and the non-leaking one.

The leaky chamber has the 1 with the 8/06.

The non-leaking chamber has NO numbers at all, nothing>>>>???

Confusing, but in any case, this new replacement chamber does not leak.

[Catnapper]

I love this investigative work. I hope we find the problem - shame on the manufacturer for not doing it themselves.

I did as you asked, Snoredog, and took the swivel off. Put the hose directly into the machine. The hose drops below the machine, more than yours does. My machine sits on a shelf about 10 inches below the top of the mattress. The hose then rises to the hose holder my husband made of PVC pipe - looks like the one you can buy online. I cranked up the humidifier so I would get some water in the nose. I even had some water spraying out of the exhaust ports on my mask! First time for that!

Results: Dry. Inside and outside. I checked the inside with a flashlight. I picked up the machine to check under it. The paper towel in the cookie sheet was dry.

Now, do I think that is conclusive? No indeed. One trial does not prove it works. If it had leaked, it would be conclusive that it did not work.

FWIW, the top and bottom of the reservoir that I have both have the 2. I am always careful to look at the O ring to see if it is straight. I always carefully insert the reservoir and try to feel it connect. I have used the machine for 26 nights. I remove the humidifier every day, open it, wash and dry it and put it together again every night. I never fill it to the fill line, but just somewhere below it. I make sure the whole thing is dry before I put it back in the machine.

Thanks for all the info, everybody. Snoredog, I went back to read your posts and edits again. You do great work. I am looking forward to your next results. Even if we don't find the problem we will eliminate some of the possibilities. That is worth the effort.

Catnapper