OT/Political: Gun Control Laws

[Julie]

Sorry, but there's something so completely wrong with a country that while being the richest in the world has to argue for everyone having guns. Switzerland is a very different place, it does have very restrictive laws about many things (not all of which are necessarily to be admired), and the argument about self protection is so old and tired (in the U.S) it makes the point that everyone is a criminal - is that really what you want the world to think of your country? Up here the general population does not walk around with guns all day and yet we don't have a culture of 'us against them', we don't go around killing each other randomly all day on any excuse (or none at all) and our police still act like public 'servants' as opposed to automatically shooting any and everyone they encounter. Do you know I was brought up travelling to the U.S. all the time, but am now actually afraid to visit for fear of some nutjob, cop or otherwise, thinking it's ok to just pull out a gun because they don't like my face (75, white, female) or who knows what excuse comes to their mind.

[JayDee]

Point one: We don't argue for everyone having guns. And I do not see how our national wealth ranking has anything to do with it. We do have rules and regulations in place that attempt to prevent criminals and psychos from acquiring or possessing weapons. Those fail to achieve their intended goal in many instances and actually (erroneously) prevent law abiding folks from acquiring a legal weapon in some cases.

Point two: The fact that Switzerland is a very different culture is my argument as well. How is it that two similarly armed societies do not have similar crime rates? Do you not see the point you and I both are proving? It's not the gun, it's the *culture*.

Point three: If you think the argument about self-protection is old and tired, you should consider how old, tired *and* thoroughly disproven the gun-ban argument is after seeing how rabidly violent Chicago and other metro area can be in spite of severe gun restrictions that are, in all practical effect, gun bans. You can't buy a handgun in Chicago, yet it is the primary weapon used in it's rampant gun-violence problems. Any other area that does not prevent or severely restrict gun ownership does not share a gun-crime rate anywhere near Chicago's. It's like the ideology is reversed. Less guns equal more crime, at least in Chicago and other similar locales. What's different between those areas and others? I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's the culture. That goes for your (comparatively speaking) law-abiding, low-crime area.

Point four: Contrary to media over-amplification, the police do not go around, "automatically shooting any and everyone they encounter". That's more than just a bit over-the-top hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? Metrics on police shootings are readily available via the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting that is regularly published. The facts show that black males are less likely to be in a police shooting than white males, yet you would not think that from watching the news. But like they say, "facts don't care about your feelings" and "facts are stubborn things". Media reporting is becoming egregious and can rightfully be accused of adding gas to a fire. For but one example, were you aware that the Ferguson, Missouri shooting that ignited riots and violent protests had it's main rallying cry of, "Hands Up - Don't Shoot" fully and completely discredited? That the shooting was ruled justified based on both physical evidence, the autopsy as well as witness testimony? That the criminal was not shot with his hands up surrendering, but with his head lowered and charging at the officer?

Do you ever wonder why the media can always be counted upon to always amplify the alleged, unproven hyperbolic, but minimize the righteous, justified truth? Based on your statement that you believe cops go around "automatically shooting any and everyone they encounter", I would guess that is something you do not wonder about all that much.

Based on your responses so far, all I can say is: Opinions vary. You have yours. I wish you the best of luck!

-JD

[Julie]

I'm not going to argue all of that (though I could), but if you believe that boy and his Skittles in Ferguson was charging the now-proven-to-be-a-criminal vigilante then you do have serious problems and I'm not going to fix them. You just showed your face, and I hope I don't have to see it anywhere anytime soon.

[Holden4th]

I'd like to pick up on one point that JD made more than once. He talks about the 'lazy' approach. It's easier to blame an inanimate object like a gun and suggest that they should be banned, than it is to look at what causes violent acts in the first place. 'Ban guns' is an easy bandwagon to jump on. It puts the blame completely on the firearm and the person holding it. It's concrete, tangible and visible. It doesn't look at the hidden things such as the homicidal persona of the shooter (I'm talking mass shootings here) and how that was only discovered after the event despite numerous warning signs that were ignored. Tackling all those mental health issues would be a financial nightmare wouldn't it? Easier to ban guns?

Except that's never going to happen in the US. Even if every law abiding citizen handed in their all firearms it is estimated that there are still enough illegal firearms to provide more than one for every US citizen.

But who needs firearms anyway. Fertilizer is cheap and quick perusal of the internet can tell you how to make a great car bomb with it. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols did just that.

[prodigyplace]

Since Julie referenced “up here” I guess she is in Canada. She is not likely i southern Ontario or she would know about the violent gun epidemic in Toronto. Canada is not much different than the US.

I grew up in the Toronto area and now live in relatively rural Virginia. Both have their drug and gun violence issues.

[zoocrewphoto]

I'm not going to argue all of that (though I could), but if you believe that boy and his Skittles in Ferguson was charging the now-proven-to-be-a-criminal vigilante then you do have serious problems and I'm not going to fix them. You just showed your face, and I hope I don't have to see it anywhere anytime soon.

Two different events.

Trayvon had the skittles, and was encountered by a vigilante who should not have started it. Both families believe it was their family member heard screaming during the recorded call. We will never know what truly happened.

The Ferguson encounter was a guy charging at a police officer.

In both cases (and many others), the initial story that comes out tends to be very inflammatory and not very accurate.

We have a lot of people with rage and/or mental illness. We have reduced services available, and we don't know what to do with people who have warning signs but haven't done anything wrong. For example, a couple years ago, I had a new coworker. He seemed nice at first. Young guy, 21. Every now and then, he would talk about his family and the fights they would get into. Some weird story about how there was a court order that this family could NOT have a family reunion. OKay, whatever. He would also react strangely to some customers and their requests. A picky customer would be a little rude, and afterward, this guy would stand there with clenched fists and say, "I have never been treated so rudely in my life." I'm thinking, dang, it's gonna get a lot worse than that.

After a few months, he was ringing my up for my lunch. He told me about a recurring dream where he comes to work and kills everybody. He said he doesn't know why. He just starts stabbing everybody. And he cut my head off. Well, that was certainly creepy. As I was sitting in the breakroom pondering this, one of my coworkers came in and told me that he had t old her about a dream where he kills everybody and he said he gutted her. After my lunch, he brought it up again, and said he didn't know why he was having these dreams, but he thinks about it every time he uses a knife (this is a deli department). And he's been having the dreams for weeks.

He was suspended and ultimately fired. Still comes in the store occasionally and always pays at the deli where I work. Freaks me out. I bought pepper spray for the first time that very next day, and I carried it in my work apron for months.

But! What do you do about it? The guy has not done anything illegal. This guy is a time bomb waiting to explode. But you can't force somebody into the mental care system unless you can prove they are a danger to themselves or others.

How many people like that are all across the country? Unable to deal with small disappointments in an appropriate manner. How many times do we see road rage? People who get cut off, or a simple mistake on the road, and now they feel they need to scare or hurt the person for a a minor mistake. My friend didn't see a stop sign once and went through it (the previous direction didn't have one). A vehicle on the main road had to slow down, but it wasn't even close. Just a mistake. The driver tailgated. We pulled over to let them pass. They pulled over. Scared they had a gun, we left. They followed for miles. Finally, when the road became two lanes, she pulled up next to us and screamed and cursed at us, with a kid in the seat next to her. This is not healthy. This is not about guns. It is about anger, and the inability to deal with it in a healthy way.

[Sheriff Buford]

Hi, I can only go by your avatar pic,

What the heck does that mean?

Sheriff

[Julie]

To Prodigy Place - what's funny is that I grew up in Montreal, only moved to T.O. at 30 (for 20 yrs), prior to which Montreal had been 'the' city to aspire to (for many reasons I won't bore you with here) and Toronto considered to be lesser for others. But sometime in the 60-70's Toronto decided it wanted to 'be like N.Y.', and I remember wondering why they would want that considering the high crime rate and other problems NY had then - I remember thinking 'be careful what you wish for'. Well, Toronto has now taken over from Mtl. as the big cheese... and guess what - it's becoming what it wished for... problems, guns and all (though I know NY has cleaned up a lot in the interim). I haven't lived in either place now though for 20 yrs.

[Barbee]

I would like to see mandatory gun safety classes and a license required to purchase a gun. Most hunters I know have had many years of experience and respect for a firearm. The same cannot be said for the general public.

[prodigyplace]

To Prodigy Place - what's funny is that I grew up in Montreal, only moved to T.O. at 30 (for 20 yrs), prior to which Montreal had been 'the' city to aspire to (for many reasons I won't bore you with here) and Toronto considered to be lesser for others. But sometime in the 60-70's Toronto decided it wanted to 'be like N.Y.', and I remember wondering why they would want that considering the high crime rate and other problems NY had then - I remember thinking 'be careful what you wish for'. Well, Toronto has now taken over from Mtl. as the big cheese... and guess what - it's becoming what it wished for... problems, guns and all (though I know NY has cleaned up a lot in the interim). I haven't lived in either place now though for 20 yrs.

Except for occasional family visits I moved from Toronto (Scarborough) in the early 80's. I have visited NYC a couple of times but have no desire to live there.I still have some family & friends in the area, though.

My point was that you can say the US is bad but Canada is not that much different. It depends very much where you are living.

[bombayone]

I am amused when Canadians try to tell US citizens how to run our country.

[prodigyplace]

I am amused when Canadians try to tell US citizens how to run our country.

Indeed!
Justin Trudeau seems to be much more left wing than I remember his father when Pierre was in office.

[Julie]

And maybe you've been in the U.S. a long time...

I love and always have loved (most of) the U.S... I hate watching you implode though... if I didn't care I wouldn't be here.

[chunkyfrog]

BE HONEST.
If that is not an option, allow yourself to do very badly.
Follow your conscience--not someone else's.

[Julie]

?? Who was that meant for?