Potential Legal Responsibilities Ramblings

TXKajun · Post by **TXKajun** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:17 pm

In another thread, I said (in a manner I thought was gentle) that we, the posters here, probably should be careful of recommending things to other posters, specifically, doing online diagnoses and recommending pressure changes with the limited information which we have available to us here in the forum. I have been brought to task (in other words, kind of fussed at) for bringing up such a topic, so I thought I'd start another thread regarding this rather than continuing on the original thread and running the risk of rudely taking it over. So here I go.

Let me start by saying that I agree with the poster on that thread who said to me "We are all adults." Hopefully this thread will be on an adult level. I'll do my part to stay there, k?

Now, on to the good stuff. This is all my own, personal opinion and please realize that I am not a physician, RT, lawyer or anything except a rational (at least in my own mind LOL) experienced (20 months) hosehead. I appreciate all the great information that I received when I was first getting all hosed up and I think (again, IMHO) the folks here are fantastic and extremely knowledgeable.

I've noticed over the last few months that there seems to be more and more postings regarding questions like "Could I Have OSA And What Should I Do?" or "How Should I Change My Settings" or "My Doctor Is An Idiot, Tell Me What To Do" or "I Bought A CPAP Off An Auction, What Now" and such. IMHO, giving direct answers to questions like these could, possibly, lead to potential legal liability if the person takes the advice of those who respond and suffers adverse consequences. I'm not going to quote any specific posts or refer to anyone by name......I'm trying not to offend anyone, k?

It seems to me that the most sensible and safest answer to these questions OUGHT to be "Go see your Doctor or RT." There are quite a few posts, though, that seem, at least to me, to be direct attempts to tell the poster how to set his/her XPAP, what pressures to use, go buy an XPAP off an auction site and set it up without bothering with the expense of a PSG or informing their physician, change pressures because the XPAP therapy doesn't seem to be working (again without a recommendation to inform their physician) and so on and so forth. I think what probably bothers me the most is that some of the folks who make these recommendations sometimes don't include a little disclaimer, something to the effect of "This is what worked for me and I'm not a physician, RT or medical professional."

I would sure hate to hear that someone reading the forum took someone else's advice and suffered negative consequences. I'd hate even more to hear that someone reading the forum took someone else's advice, suffered negative consequences and then turned around and tried to sue the pants off the first person! And don't tell me it couldn't happen, please. Yep, it's a kind of weird scenario and pretty far-fetched, but then again, folks have been sued for a whole lot less. From what I've read, a lot of these type of cases don't even get to court (settled out of court by the lawyers), but it sure causes a bunch of misery and financial distress. And it seems like it could be avoided so very easily with either a disclaimer or a recommendation to get to a physician.

OK. I'm done and probably won't even defend myself against violent flames, but I'd like to hear if anyone else thinks this idea has merit or whether I'm totally paranoid.

Thanks in advance to all who respond.

Kajun

This therapy WORKS!!!

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:27 pm

Very good point Kajun. I was recently given some friendly advice regarding my post for the Breeze modification. All of the thoughts you discussed ran through my mind and I did add a disclaimer.

However, there are lots of posts on the forum without any disclaimers (mine included). Some of them are harmless and some may not be.

Thanks for the topic ... I too am interested in what PAPers have to say about it.

- roberto

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:35 pm

I have a safer solution, I don't wear pants in the house or cave, Maybe that's too much info.

However I have a few extra pairs, sue me, and you won't gain much, but I'll share. BTW: The belts don't come with them, two cows had to give their lives for each of those belts. Jim

kikisue · Post by **kikisue** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:46 pm

Kajun,

Working in Human Resources, unfortunately I know all about our litigation happy society. And I agree with you, we should be careful to answer questions with "this is my experience" and the usual "YMMV" that I've seen many people use. Absolutely, we are here to help and give advice and support. But, most of us are not medical professionals and therefore we do have some limits. I'm very grateful for all the help I got here - I would probably not still be on CPAP today without the wonderful folks on here. But, I also know that I need to keep my doctor informed of what's going on, as ultimately she is keeping track of all my issues and may notice a problem or counterindication that I would miss on my own. Is she 100% infallible? No, she's human like the rest of us. Do I do my own research? Absolutely. And I often take it with me to my visits so we can discuss it.

We should be informed healthcare consumers, but that includes consulting the medical experts when appropriate, as well as our friends and co-sufferers.

Just my 2 cents - "Your Mileage May Vary"

Karen

PS - TXKajun - are you in Texas somewhere? I'm in a suburb of Dallas, just curious if we're "neighbors".

tooly125 · Post by **tooly125** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:06 pm

Goofproof wrote:I have a safer solution, I don't wear pants in the house or cave, Maybe that's too much info.

Thanks for the mental picture Jim

Kajun,

On the first page of the forum in the small print it says

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
iCGstation v1.0 Template By Ray © 2003, 2004 iOptional

Logo and Content © US Expediters Inc, cpap.com
All Rights Reserved
The information provided on this site is not intended nor recommended as a substitute for professional medical advice.

Would that hold up in court? Who knows I just thought I would throw it into the discussion.

NyNurse33 · Post by **NyNurse33** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:33 pm

tooly125 wrote:
On the first page of the forum in the small print it says
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
iCGstation v1.0 Template By Ray © 2003, 2004 iOptional

Logo and Content © US Expediters Inc, cpap.com
All Rights Reserved
The information provided on this site is not intended nor recommended as a substitute for professional medical advice.
Would that hold up in court? Who knows I just thought I would throw it into the discussion.

Larry · Post by **Larry** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:58 pm

I agree with the caution and would add another suggestion. People should only comment on things they have first hand knowledge about. Skip the unsupported generalizations and all statements that begin with, "Most people find........" unless you can back it up with facts.

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:26 pm

TXKajun wrote: "We are all adults." Hopefully this thread will be on an adult level. I'll do my part to stay there, k?

Me, too. Sorry if I offended, TXKajun. (BTW, I got Cajun blood myself. Mother was from Port Arthur.)

TXKajun wrote:Now, on to the good stuff. This is all my own, personal opinion and please realize that I am not a physician, RT, lawyer or anything except a rational (at least in my own mind LOL) experienced (20 months) hosehead. I appreciate all the great information that I received when I was first getting all hosed up and I think (again, IMHO) the folks here are fantastic and extremely knowledgeable.

Well said. I think it would be a great tragedy for many if folks here start censoring what they say, and adding disclaimers, etc., etc., because they begin to worry about getting sued. But, hey, in America anybody can sue anybody for anything. It doesn't have to make sense.

The problem lies in what is often referred to as the "law of unintended consequences". If collectively we engage in self-censorship of the type you describe then this forum will be little better than the ASAA website which engages in exactly the behavior you describe. That site doesn't seem to offer nearly as much useful information to help folks as cpaptalk does, IMHO.

However, more to your point is the matter of who is likely to sue whom and why. As I see it there are really only two possibilities which I'll describe below:
1) Intimidation - Yes, there are certainly those who would like folks to be less outspoken here. You know who they are, too. I'll be damned if I'll give 'em the satisfaction. But, they're not likely to come after me. Instead, they'll keep going after Johnny one way or another. Johnny's disclaimer will probably hold up in court, but you're right about one thing, it's not gonna stop a determined adversary who really intends simply to outspend Johnny into bankruptcy.
2) Money - Since most of us aren't a whole lot better off than Jim is, not real likely that anyone's gonna come after us regardless of whether the advice we give is good or bad. In my opinion this makes it unlikely that anyone who gets bad advice from here is gonna even be able to find a lawyer to take the case. Hence, most of us aren't at any great risk. Like I said, Johnny's gonna bear the brunt of any attack.

What really irks me personally about all this though is what I detailed in a thread some months back called "The Big Lie", meaning the concept that the "medical professionals" are the only ones with the knowledge and experience to offer any sort of advice. The whole concept is so false as to be totally ludicrous, yet the medical professionals, for self-serving reasons, continue to perpetuate the myth, sucking up loads of money along the way.

Just my personal perspective, of course, offered as one individual to another, not as any sort of expert legal opinion.

Regards,
Bill (who has only a modicum of horse sense, and not a whit of legal sense)

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:18 pm

My opinion is:

If you are not going to come here and help people struggling with their cpap therapy then you should go elsewhere.

Same goes for posting legal advice, go to a forum for lawyers. You have to be pretty damned ignorant to come here expecting to get medical advice. That disclaimer is posted when you sign up for your account and all over this website.

In fact, it is on every page at the bottom:

The information provided on this site is not intended nor recommended as a substitute for professional medical advice.

Now which part of that do you NOT understand?

Patients come here for honest answers, answers their doctors many times cannot give due to legal liability BS issues. If you are so concerned about it, maybe you should stick to your doctor, RT and lawyer.

kteague · Post by **kteague** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:04 am

Kajun,
Thanks for your "red flag" remarks. Sometimes it's hard to keep one's well-intended advice tempered with discretion. Now, if someone wants to put their hand in my finances, I'll gladly hand over all my bills to them, because that's all I've got with more numbers than I have toes. It did cross my mind to wonder if me selling some products thru my daughter's web site make them touchable. I'm not worried about what someone could get so much - it's the legal defense that would be a problem. Even so, I'm not so concerned about that as I am that my good intentions not be in the end harmful. There can be so much left unsaid in someone's story, and I know I can be presumptous and opinionated about one aspect and have no way to know it's not the primary issue. Some who were in the chatroom when a "challenging" guest came in a few months ago can attest to the fact that when we post replies, we don't know the mental ability of the reader to interpret & respond to advice in an expected manner. Plainly, some people, for their own good, really do need to leave EVERYTHING to the medical professionals. I doubt I'll say very much differently, but I am glad for the timely reminder to use discretion.
Kathy

bdp522 · Post by **bdp522** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:26 am

This is a public message board, people voicing individual opinions and ideas. Anyone can post here no matter how much they do or do not know. That was clear to me from the first day I joined.
Since my MD doesn't know anything about xpap, and has already told me I'm on my own and to use the internet for info, I come here for advice and suggestions. If the wonderful people here were not so free with thier advice and suggestions, I would have failed miserably with my treatment.
Anyone who doesn't feel that the disclaimer at the bottom of each page is enough can put thier own disclaimer at the end of a post, or start each post with 'this is what worked for me YMMV, or choose not to post at all.

Brenda

oldgearhead · Post by **oldgearhead** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:32 am

1) My God, its just a low powered fan. A curling iron is more dangerous.
2) Of course you need a sleep study to check for other problems.
3) OSA is self-treatable.

TXKajun · Post by **TXKajun** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:07 am

Nice range of responses, folks!

To be honest, I hadn't even noticed the disclaimer at the bottom of each page! That is a nice touch, though, johnny! It's always good to try and CYA.

I'm gonna just kick back and see what responses come through. Again, thanks to everyone for responding. Sometimes my thoughts get kinda cautious.....sometimes too cautious, maybe.

Kajun

This therapy WORKS!!!

P.S.
NightHawkeye, no offense taken whatsoever. Good to see another person of Cajun descent here! Laissez les bon temps roller!! LOL

whatrdreamsmadeof · Post by **whatrdreamsmadeof** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:25 am

I'M WITH SNOREDOG AND JIM (WATCH OUT FOR THE VISUAL CRUELTY LAWS)...............I'D BE TOTALLY NONCOMPLIANT WITH THIS STUFF, OR CONTENDING FOR THE CENTRAL EVENT OLYMPICS IF NOT FOR THE HELP HERE.......NOW WHAT ABOUT A DISCLAIMER FOR THE LOUSEY NEUROLOGIST, PULMONOLIGST AND DME.............YOU GUYS AND RESTED GAL SAVED ME...........GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP THE GOOD STUFF COMMIN..................ELLEN

ehusen · Post by **ehusen** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:42 am

Ehhh, it's all been said already but hey I've got a minute to share my opinion as well.

In life you've got 2 options: you can worry that anything you say can and will be used against you, or you can give out information the best you can.

Sorry, but I think this thread is kind of pointless. It's the same basic advice anywhere. Do we know a lot about CPAP therapy and OSA? Yes and we can help others with their issues about the treatment. Are we medical professional s? Most likely no.

I would think carefully about what I advise people on, no matter what I'm dealing with. Heck, I don't want anyone to get hurt or injured because I was a bozo, regardless of litigation possibilities.

If you are truly concerned about being sued then you shouldn't bother posting at all. If not, then give the best advice you can, qualified with "I'm not an expert/professional/legal anything" statement.

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