New APAP user and high PB

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
mattapap
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New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am

Hello all! I'm brand new to this forum and sleep apnea (at least knowing that I have it). I was outfitted with a DreamStation APAP machine three nights ago with DreamWear pillow mask. I've had some difficulty adjusting to the machine, but finally got some sleep with it last night. Chunks at least in 2-3 hour segments it seems. I am waking up feeling far worse than I did off the machine. I have headaches, and feel like my head gets flushed sometimes, random leg pains here and there, and just generally exhausted. Is there an adjustment period where I would get worse while on APAP?

My main worry is that I still have a pretty high AHI while on the machine - and I seem to be having a very high amount of periodic breathing (over 17% last night). It has been climbing each day. First night started out around 6%, then 13%, and now over 17% I downloaded the SleepyHead software to help break it down - but honestly don't know how to look at it. I'm having some minor struggles breathing normally during the day as well. Should I be concerned on this? Here is a particularly bad section of central airways and PB last night. Anyone can render their thoughts?

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Pugsy
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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:48 am

Did you have an in lab sleep study where they hooked you up to the mask and machine and titrated for optimal pressure or were you give the apap machine with the wide open range and told the machine would figure it out?

When is your follow up visit scheduled for? If you don't have one, get one.

Do you have a copy of your sleep study results? If not, get them. Did you have a home diagnostic study or did you go to a sleep lab?

Do you take any medications that would suppress respiration...specifically any type of pain medications like opiods or even synthetic subsitutes?

Can you go to the events tab....click on ClearAirway category...you will be taken to a list of all the CAs and the times they happened...pick one of the CAs (in the green PB flagged time frame) with 2 or 3 other CAs in close proximity to that time...so that the one you select will be sort of in the middle.
Click on that one CA event you have chosen.
The graphs on the right will zoom in on that one event at the level I would like to see.
Get a screen shot at that level of zooming in...the way you did it on this one isn't zoomed in enough.

Resize your graphs so that only these graphs are shown on the right.
Events
Flow Rate
Pressure Leak
on the left side...turn off the Pie chart (Preferences/Appearance tab and remove check mark)...hide the calendar
By hiding the calendar and turning off the pie chart you will then be able to show the AHI and bar graphs along with the statistics.

Maybe use imagur.com for your screen shots. I can't read the numbers on this image and I can't enlarge it.
https://sleep.tnet.com/reference/tips/imgur
Can you get me another image of the detailed page without zooming in on anything. I need to see where the pressure went over the night.

So redo this one...and get the really zoomed in on one CA that is in PB. So 2 more images and I need to be able to read the numbers so be able to click on them to enlarge if needed.

It appears that the starting minimum pressure isn't sufficient to prevent the OAs and hyponeas....and we don't know about the Clear Airway/Central events yet. It wouldn't be impossible for those CAs to be related to arousals caused by the OAs and hyponeas that aren't optimally treated.
It also wouldn't be impossible for those CAs to be real and brought on by cpap pressure.
So more detective work is needed.

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mattapap
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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:21 am

Thanks for the speedy response! I have a follow-up with my ENT on June 14. I did have a sleep study - but they didn't hook me up to a mask to titrate. They gave me this APAP I guess with general settings?

I don't have a copy of my sleep study results - but I'll be sure to get those now. I believe my results were particularly bad - as I was suffering from a recurring bout of pneumonia when I had it done, and could barely get any sleep at all during the study. I went to a sleep lab for it.

Currently not taking any medications that would suppress breathing. I'm on a few homeopathic droppers that will be finishing shortly. They're just natural supplements.

I have tried to take the screenshots again as requested. I couldn't get the calendar to disappear, but hopefully this will help you see more.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Julie » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:34 am

First thought would be to raise your low pressure setting as 4 is very difficult for most people to breathe at and is not very effective as therapy when many of your events occur at higher levels that the machine can take too long to address from such a low setting. I'd move it to start at e.g. 7 for a couple of nights and see how things go.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:49 am

Next time you post an imgur link...click on "large thumbnail" first before coping the bbc link.
You have to be logged in to get the screen of addresses with thumbnail choices below the links.
With the large thumbnail choice your right side won't be cut off and often the large thumbnail is big enough that we can see what we need.
No need to redo these though.

For the calendar click on View and you will see the toggle for "show calendar". Not critical as I can see all of the statistics that I need to see.

The close ups are fine...they don't look like Cheyne Stokes Respiration to me which was my main concern.
Instead they look like maybe some awake/semi awake breathing getting flagged by mistake. At least these shown.
This is what CSR looks like.
Image

Your pressures aren't going anywhere near the max on this report. Looks like max was 10.3.
I think your minimum needs to be up around 7 or 8...that way it can get to where it needs to be faster and hopefully better hold the airway open and do a better job preventing the obstructive stuff (hyponeas, OAs, Flow limitations, snores).
The Clear Airway/Central stuff we can't fix with this machine UNLESS (and it's a big if/unless) the CAs are from arousals caused by the OA stuff.

If these centrals are instead caused by the cpap pressure itself then we get to have a whole different discussion but there's a reasonable chance that they could be related to arousal irregular breathing.

I suggest you call your doctor and alert him to your symptoms and these results and not wait until the June 14 appointment.
Things are bad enough that you are having symptoms and your sleep is worse and while we don't expect cpap to work a miracle overnight we sure don't expect it to make things worse and in your situation it looks like things are a lot worse and the headaches could be from all the apneas.

So the minimum needs to be changed...and you may or may not be comfortable doing that yourself....it's easy. Starting point of 7 or 8 would be likely better.
Here's the short version on how to get to the clinical menu setup area where pressures can be changed if you want to try it. But I fully understand if you aren't comfortable doing that.
http://www.apneaboard.com/dreamstation- ... structions

Also go here and request the provider/clinical manual for your machine...there's some good information in it that isn't in the regular user manual.
http://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap-p ... tup-manual

Now there is one thing that you can do that might make a difference and it's a comfort feature that is perfectly acceptable for patients to change their comfort features themselves.
Looks like you are using Flex exhale relief....can't tell what the setting might be as it is below the statistics...try turning it off and see what happens.
In a small number of people exhale relief (like the Flex..either C Flex or A Flex) can cause centrals.
It's worth trying and since you are starting out at 4 cm anyway...and Flex doesn't even kick in until you reach 6 cm...you shouldn't feel any real difference while awake anyway.

So...change the minimum if you are comfortable changing it. I can't see the doctor being upset about it because you didn't have a formal titration study and they are essentially just letting the machine sort it out right now...but the machine needs a better starting point.

If you make a change...only make one change at a time...like if you turn Flex off don't change the minimum pressure at the same time.
That way you can better gauge the results if there are any differences.
I doubt that Flex is the trigger for the centrals...if it were me I would do the minimum pressure change first and see what happens and then maybe consider altering Flex setting based on what is showing on the reports.

My thoughts are this...fix what obviously needs fixing or at least try to fix and then see what else ends up needing to be fixed.
It's obvious the obstructive stuff needs work...so fix that stuff and see what happens with the centrals once the obstructive stuff is better prevented.
You might get lucky and the bulk of those CAs are just related to the obstructive stuff causing arousals and if you reduce the arousals the CAs will reduce also.

A random CA/central...no big deal but as it stands right now yours is way more than random.

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mattapap
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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:12 am

Hi Pugsy,

Thanks for all the detailed thoughts. I'm trying to reach my doctor today (I can never get him on the phone) and see if he'll give me the go-ahead to up the minimum pressure setting. Here is another chart from the night before during a PB event. Do these qualify as CSR?

Image

I'll see if I can adjust the Flex setting right now regardless.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:19 am

First one and the third one look CSRish...not truly classic but sort of...the others not so much.
A random real CSR isn't cause for alarm...it's when there's a truckload of them that we pay special attention.
We aren't ignoring the centrals at this time. We are just focusing on what we know for sure is fixable and needs to be fixed with your machine.
If these are real centrals and not related to arousals we can't fix them with this machine anyway.

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mattapap
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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:30 am

Roger that. So first things first - I need to up my minimum pressure and tackle the OSAs and hypopneas and get them under control. Or at least see what happens once I do up the min pressure. Once those are improving then figure out what to do about the centrals if they still present. Sound good?

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:31 am

Machine related question - I have the option to set my Flex to 1, 2, or 3. There doesn't seem to be an off with it. Should I set it to 1 then?

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Julie » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 am

Flex is a comfort setting and if you don't feel the need for it (exhalation relief) then don't use it at all. If you feel you need a bit, experiment with settings (1 being the lowest), but be ready for your AHI to possibly go up by a little (not a lot) as that's what happens, so you could find the right balance for you. Having AHI 1-2 cm higher than it would be otherwise may not be a big deal to you, so see how it goes and decide.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Midnight Strangler » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:24 am

mattapap wrote:Machine related question - I have the option to set my Flex to 1, 2, or 3. There doesn't seem to be an off with it. Should I set it to 1 then?
You have to turn off Aflex in the clinician menu. Get the manual to find the instructions to the clinician menu - http://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap-p ... tup-manual

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Pugsy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:39 am

You probably need to go to the clinical setup menu to access the Flex option to turn it off.
Otherwise a setting of 1 would be next step to try but you should be able to get to Flex in the menu. Look closely because they might have put a little lock on the Flex symbol and you need to change the settings so the patient can make changes. All explained in the manual.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by mattapap » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:34 am

Hi all - so I've tracked my status over the last few days without making any of the recommended changes (I wanted to see a baseline of a few more days) - and it appears that my central apneas are growing and coming in big clusters. Do you still believe this is something that would be addressed by raising the min pressure?

I have a meeting with my doctor tomorrow to discuss all. Obviously none of this seems too great right now. My AHI and centrals have been rising by day, and sometimes my PB skyrockets too. Do you think the APAP is giving me more centrals? I never used to wake up tired or short of breath (I was just a snorer - which is why I went in for my sleep study) - but I seem to be growing worse daily with this. I have to discontinue mask use in the morning because I feel short of breath. I wake up with mild chest pains too. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by Julie » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:04 am

I understand your wanting a baseline, but it wouldn't hurt anything to have raised your low pressure to e.g. 7 for 1-2 nites and might have allowed things to level off better. You're really trying to get treated with suboptimal settings and whether or not you have 'real' centrals won't change that. Your system may be reacting to the '4' setting by overreacting trying to get more air, so you have not achieved much by not allowing it.

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Re: New APAP user and high PB

Post by ajack » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:52 am

you have had some good explanations and advice. although there is nothing wrong with slow increments, If they were my charts I'd have min around the med/median pressure which is bouncing around a bit from about 8.5- to 11. I'd go 10 minimum and 14max. I'd try to use the least amount of flex possible. I know you are maxing over 15, but I can't see high pressure helping the ca for now. I'd work up from the minimum pressure and try and stop some oa/h before they start.

I too would advise you to contact the doctor, the centrals will need to be watched and acted on if they don't settle

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