Artificial Intelligence (AI) and CPAP, APAP machines

[Kayak]

Coming from another forum by sheer curiosity... I'm so surprised by the difference in attitudes.
On the OTHER forum, it took me 5 days of courtesy and reading to get real, KIND help, that actually resolved my issues, helped me sleep my 8 hours without interruptions, and to go from an AHI of 57.2 ...to yesterday's 1.52.

Reading the comments in this topic and in a few others, it seems like this forum is more dedicated to people in need of anger management therapy. Can't you just stick to Facebook and post your bile there? Or any other media that doesn't give a damn about helping people with real problems?

Regarding AI, xPAPs and Elon Musk... The learned critics might want to remember that once, the earth was thought to be flat. It's not, but it took SOME intellectual effort and time to reach that conclusion.

[Rob K]

LSAT, before you go further. I suspect you misinterpreted my joke as an insult. It's common on the internet to type "lol" at the end to indicate that you are joking around. I suspect you know that though since you are online a lot. You would have had to of seen the show Shark Tank to understand my post.

If you haven't seen Shark Tank then let me explain. I've seen it a couple times. On the show people present their ideas and products to potential investors. The investors talk about why they think the ideas/products are good or bad. Often their comments are supportive and other times they are the hard truth. It is supposed to be entertainment. This thread totally reminded me of that show.

I was trying to lighten the mood. I see this forum as a great place to help people, not a place to berate.

[linuxman]

Now I am reminded why I don't post very often here.

However, in response to some of these postings.

1. AI is a practical technology that is here now and is being implemented in many things. For years it didn't make much progress, but in the last five years or so it is really taking off. As a technology it is becoming ordinary.

2. It isn't expensive. There is open source AI software from companies such as Google. Even inexpensive microprocessors can run it.

3. It is rapidly evolving with cycles of learning.

However, I have really wasted my time posting into a Trollspace.

That's absurd!
Maybe you don't realize it, but these devices have to be thoroughly tested, the programs copyrighted and patented AND approved by the FDA. All that equals LOTS OF $$$$$$.
There are no XPAP machines that do use or could use "open source" software. The manufacturers would be susceptible to lawsuits up the wazoo.


Den

.

Open source software in critical applications is very common today - not only in the medical field, but in military systems, financial markets, and highly critical commercial systems. Copyrighting and intellectual property are completely compatible with open source software, as long as you follow the rules. Even with GPL code, there are ways to avoid having to share any proprietary code, if that's important. I work development of products every day that contain patented and copyrighted code in them, and use numerous layers of open source software, from the operating system up through the application stack. I don't know what OS these devices run, but it very well could be Linux or FreeBSD. It could also be a proprietary OS like VxWorks, or similar, particularly if a real time OS is required. But there is nothing to prevent use of open source software in such applications.

[crestifer]

when AI truly comes into it's own....it will not be used by doctors to help treat sleep apnea...it will BE doctors.

things are going to get real spooky in the next 10-25 years. indeed.

[linuxman]

There are some possibilities to improve CPAP response and outcomes I think, but AI probably isn't the right term to use, in part because AI strictly speaking is an abstract notion. There are elements of AI related research that I think could possibly provide some improvement. Machine learning, an evolving, but quite available and practical mechanism, I think could be used to take many nights of data (where many probably means months of data, at a minimum) and come up with a "pressure plan" that might be able to get out in front of some events. It would also erroneously raise pressure at times, but that's probably a decent trade-off if it resulted in a net decrease in real events. The company I work for has it's own machine learning API, which I've used personally, and it's pretty good at surfacing subtle patterns in unstructured data, both on the short and long term. Sleep behavior is pretty chaotic, though...I have my doubts that there would be a lot of improvement there relative to the cost. The other issue is that at the moment, this isn't something that could be done inside the device itself, at least at the current price point. It could be done externally though, then the "pressure plan" sent back to the device to actually implement.

With therapy as it is now, many folks get down to normal AHI ranges with just the basics. Costs are going to be pretty high to do even a little better, and there will need to be a return on that investment. I think a useful next step is to have the machine get more information about sleep position...maybe coupling the CPAP device with other motion based sleep quality detection. If you can know when someone is on their back or side, and how that has impacted their therapy in the past you could get out in front of the events and prevent them, rather than respond to them. I do see some possibilities in analysis of aggregated data (multiple people) in the case where you've got position and/or REM sleep sensing. There might be some useful advances in algorithms with that kind of analysis.

[OkyDoky]

think a useful next step is to have the machine get more information about sleep position...maybe coupling the CPAP device with other motion based sleep quality detection. If you can know when someone is on their back or side, and how that has impacted their therapy in the past you could get out in front of the events and prevent them, rather than respond to them.

That I could see as a possibility. Especially since ResMed bought some of Zeo's rights and already has the S+ device.

[Pugsy]

I was trying to lighten the mood. I see this forum as a great place to help people, not a place to berate.

I saw what you were trying to do.

As you have probably spotted by now sometimes some people here say things that are rather abrupt and snarky and sometimes just plain down right mean spirited and ugly.
Some of it is attempts at humor that get taken the wrong way. Some of it is that it is just the way those people communicate it appears that is the only way they know to speak. Some are just plain mean and nasty period. They never have anything to say good about anyone or anything and just want to be assholes because they like being assholes I guess.

This forum has some "personalities" here that I don't care for. If I was at a social gathering I wouldn't want to talk to those people because I don't like them for whatever reason I might have.
For the most part I try to ignore those people here that I just don't like and any reason I might not like them is a good enough reason in my book...I don't always succeed in my attempt to ignore but hey...I am human after all.

The sad truth is that this is a great place but some people here will berate others for whatever reason they feel they have to berate someone. Not much we can do about it either.
About the best we can do is try to not let the ugliness affect us and it's real hard sometimes to not let it get under our skin. Believe me...I know exactly how hard it is to not want to fight ugly with ugly right back.

I don't think LSAT's comment was directed at you...I think it was very likely directed at the OP but I suppose I could be wrong. Sometimes when we use the quote button we cloud who our responses are directed toward if there's more than one quote in it..
I now remember the OP in this thread from back a while ago...his personality is one of those that I mentioned above. I wouldn't be chatting with him over cocktails.

[chunkyfrog]

I'll wait eagerly for the "artificial intelligence" on some of these hypothetical cpaps to decide to strangle their human masters in their sleep.

Shades of Asimov!
Remember the heroics of Seal team Six, and the cpap machine found at the site.
If the machine had been programmed to choose the good of mankind over the benefit of a madman,
just imagine what might NOT have happened! A maniac would have quietly died in his sleep;
and the NYC skyline would be different than today.

[Rob K]

This seems like a great place to share experiences and ideas, help those in need and have a good time. Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.

Getting back to artificial intelligence. Interesting subject, I don't know enough to contribute, so I'll continue to listen in.

[LoBattery]

Reading the comments in this topic and in a few others, it seems like this forum is more dedicated to people in need of anger management therapy. Can't you just stick to Facebook and post your bile there? Or any other media that doesn't give a damn about helping people with real problems?

It's the internet, you have to expect that. Education has it's cost. Since coming here, I managed to reduce my AHI in half after my doctor said not to change a thing. I've learned I am indeed fortunate compared to others. Just listening can be rewarding. Many thanks to those who do the heavy lifting and those who try their best to share their experience and are harassed.

Back to the topic, I am trying to become intelligent artificially.

[chunkyfrog]

It is the weekend, when spooks drop in from the "other" forum, focusing on our self-censorship (or none)
---and completely ignoring the fact that this is the place that helps you ADJUST YOUR OWN MACHINE.
Have a lovely (censored) life.

[palerider]

Now I am reminded why I don't post very often here.

However, in response to some of these postings.

1. AI is a practical technology that is here now and is being implemented in many things. For years it didn't make much progress, but in the last five years or so it is really taking off. As a technology it is becoming ordinary.

2. It isn't expensive. There is open source AI software from companies such as Google. Even inexpensive microprocessors can run it.

3. It is rapidly evolving with cycles of learning.

However, I have really wasted my time posting into a Trollspace.

That's absurd!
Maybe you don't realize it, but these devices have to be thoroughly tested, the programs copyrighted and patented AND approved by the FDA. All that equals LOTS OF $$$$$$.
There are no XPAP machines that do use or could use "open source" software. The manufacturers would be susceptible to lawsuits up the wazoo.


Den

.

Open source software in critical applications is very common today - not only in the medical field, but in military systems, financial markets, and highly critical commercial systems. Copyrighting and intellectual property are completely compatible with open source software, as long as you follow the rules. Even with GPL code, there are ways to avoid having to share any proprietary code, if that's important. I work development of products every day that contain patented and copyrighted code in them, and use numerous layers of open source software, from the operating system up through the application stack. I don't know what OS these devices run, but it very well could be Linux or FreeBSD. It could also be a proprietary OS like VxWorks, or similar, particularly if a real time OS is required. But there is nothing to prevent use of open source software in such applications.

well said, it's a good thing to refute the uninformed 'opinions' out there.

[Rob K]

I don't think we should expect the internet to be a bad place. We all make it what it is. We can take an active roll in cleaning it up, starting with ourselves. It will be a better place to socialize. I personally try to make a conscious effort to raise the bar; of course I fail at it sometimes and have to apologize for things.

[palerider]

I personally try to make a conscious effort to raise the bar; of course I fail at it...

RobK, trapped in the sandpit of life.

[Rob K]

I'm done, I have to take a break.lol I need to get off the internet and go fishing or something.